Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojktWhatever else The Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street are or are not, they are, for me at least, amusing opportunity for introspection. The Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street, reveal, for me at least, more about myself than anything else.
I blame these groups because, honestly, there just isn’t much there. The Tea Party has the virtue of being specific about wanting to cut spending and slash taxes, but as far as I can see anything that a reasonable person could call a program for governing is something The Tea Party hasn’t offered and has no interest whatsoever in offering. Occupy Wall Street has the virtue of being vague. “It’s not fair”, is , as far as I can tell, the basic cry of Occupy Wall Street and that isn’t a demand for concrete action and policies.
Which is to say that I find it hard to take either of these groups seriously (as far as policy is concerned at least) because neither is offering very much at all.
With nothing really to latch on to, I’m left with a kind of mild fondness for Occupy Wall Street and a kind of mild distaste for The Tea Party.
I equate The Tea Party with deep grouchiness. That’s unfair. That’s kind of the point. And perhaps I’m mistaking grouchiness for serious, passionate concern about unrestrained government spending.
Still, grouchiness. That’s what I think of when I think of The Tea Party.
I equate Occupy Wall Street with youth, energy, and a general earnest desire to improve conditions. Just as unfair. And perhaps I’m mistaking youth, energy, and desire for naivete.
Again, I blame The Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street for this. Apart from any feeling or impressions I have about Plato’s Republic, I have an understanding of it. I understand the arguments, the positions, and have some understanding of the merits and shortcomings of the arguments and positions. I don’t have that with either The Tea Party or Occupy Wall Street, a good indication, to me at least, that neither group has yet put anything serious on the table.
Filed under: Uncategorized |
All Things in Moderation 
I can see it's going to be an OWS type of day. I tend to agree that, in both cases, there is both a miasma of participating views and motivations, and a bevy of narrowly focused interpretations that reinforce the narrative of the interpreter. If I were to distill my impression of the Tea Party message, it's that the government is overreaching, and therefore needs to be limited, and perhaps rolled back.The OWS message seems to me that the financial sector, and big business in general, is overreaching or has done so, and needs to be reigned in, and perhaps should provide for some restitution. There aren't a lot of policy prescriptions in these positions. So, there's not much to argue about, but neither group was ever particularly organized, so developing a coherent platform generally agreed upon is almost impossible. They are loose coalitions based on a generalized dissatisfaction with the status quo. As for political activism, both groups, I think, support evicting certain politicians in favor of certain other politicians. I suppose the presumption would be that the right sort of politician will advance meaningful policy positions, as opposed to the wrong sort, which does not.
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"I'm mistaking grouchiness for serious, passionate concern about unrestrained government spending."I get the impression that both elements could be in play. As I'm sure the OWS crowd has deep concern about the potential economic collapse of our country and the increasing divide between the super-rich and everybody else, and are excited about the opportunity to party hard and maybe get laid. Who could blame them?
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I like the idea that introspection into your response to the TEA party and OWS says more about you than it does about them.I'll admit to not having given OWS much thought at all. Perhaps some introspection is in order …
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"I'm mistaking grouchiness for serious, passionate concern about unrestrained government spending."I agree with kevin that both could be in play. It almost seems likely to me that what started out as general grouchiness may have led to the passionate concern. People were/are looking for something/someone to blame. They start to search for a target and settled on the government or Wall Street.
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The Tea Party was pretty successful in that they managed to both exert influence on GOP politics and place several new Representatives in the House. The OWS movement is just beginning so I don't think we can estimate yet whether they will have any lasting influence on politics or not.
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Hmmmm. Grouchiness. Definitely grouchiness. By golly, Nathan, I think you've put your finger on what bugs me about the Tea Party folks–they haven't ever really looked excited so much as pissed off at the world.The OWS folks look like they're having more fun. Of course, as KW points out, they're probably getting laid more than the Tea Party folks are so that may have something to do with it.Just sayin'And now we know why lms looks back on her hippy dippy days so fondly!! 😀
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To be young again……………….wistfully said.
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This is a purely political shot, but Eric Cantor seems to have turned into a pretzel……."This administration's failed policies have resulted in an assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles," he said. "If you read the newspapers today, I, for one, am increasingly concerned about the growing mobs occupying Wall Street and the other cities across the country. And believe it or not, some in this town, have actually condoned the pitting of Americans against Americans. But you sent us here to fight for you and all Americans."But when he spoke at the Values Voter Summit in 2009, Cantor expressed a very different sentiment toward another movement that was arguably "pitting Americans against Americans" — the Tea Party.At that time, Cantor praised those protesters as "fighting on the fighting lines of what we know is a battle for our democracy.”"People are beginning to wake up and see a country they don’t really recognize," said Cantor.
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As probably the only out and proud, flamboyant TeaBagger here, I find the "grouchy" title amusing. Grouchy, to me, implies a feeling of powerlessness. I and those I have worked with in regards to TeaBagging, felt anything but powerless, we felt we had abdicated our responsibility to be the effective oversight of our elected politicians, and decided to reasert our authority. And we continue to do so, I will add. I'm curious if the OWS'ers are action oriented. Time will tell.
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Indeed, nothing says "assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles" like large, peaceful (mostly), political assemblies. Our Founding Fathers are surely rolling over in their graves.
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McWing, I think that will depend on whether or not a political organization, whether a union or movement oriented one, swoops in and co-opts the grassroots effort. The Republican Party embraced the Tea Party (I won't use your term) but I'm finding it doubtful that Dems will be able to harness this one. In part because Dems aren't exactly clean on the banks and Wall Street themselves.
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Troll…ahem, sorry…Mr. Troll- I don't think they continue to feel grouchy and helpless. I think it started out feeling that way which led to people, such as yourself, taking active steps to enact change. And to be clear by change I mean destruction of our country. 😉
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Troll, "grouchy" is one of the last adjectives I'd apply to you. . .
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Great post on Ezra's blog about the Tea Party versus OWS from an organizational perspective."And today academics are learning that the Tea Party is composed not only of the newly disgruntled, but also of many people who have been politically active, some of them since the Goldwater campaign.And what’s striking about the Tea Party after two plus years is not the Koch brother’s seed money, or the disruptions of congressional town hall meetings in 2009, but, more impressively and relentlessly, the sheer numbers of grass roots chapters around the country that regularly meet in order to implement their pressure campaign on the Republican Party.Like with exercise, people have to make the time to do this somewhat tedious thing they nevertheless claim they really want to do. They did when building the CIO in the ’30s, and the Civil Rights movement in the ’60s. And people are making time to go to Tea Party meetings today."The four habits of highly successful social movements
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Great to see you here, jnc4p.
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I've spoken to Sold2u also and he said he would email me. Now we need more girls and more liberals….please.
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Grouchy ain't doin', if you're trying to influence the politics of the Country.
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Now we need more girls and more liberals….pleaseSaw willows briefly on PL, haven't seen georgia yet today. But the PL comments are acting screwy for me now, so I can't stay over there long (they've crashed my browser twice so far). Still working on it, lms!
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I know re PL, I've had trouble too. I know you're working on it. We're getting there and it's been a great week for posts and comments.
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I was excited about the Tea Party, largely b/c I've been flying one of those Gadsden flag's since the Clinton administration. But that's just because it was the mid-90s and I had my first part time job and my first run in with the tyranny that is payroll taxes.
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AllButCertain, MsJS, Taroya, in addition to you, lmsinca, and suekzoo and Michigoose . . . We've got the girls, need a little more participation. 😉 Time constrains us all, alas. I brought Mr. Sullivan (and he's contributing, praise be!), now you have to find somebody. 😉 I know another liberal free-thinker to pitch that is unknown to the group, and she's a girl, but I can't promise anything.
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And okie, when she has time. I know it's hard to find the time. BTW, we're going to San Diego tomorrow so I'll be gone until Sunday afternoon or evening. Our CO daughter's in San Diego working with a research group so we're all going down there to see her. It seems like a long time since the 4th. of July and we won't see her again until Christmas, yikes. Although we might meet her in Utah to give her back her dog…………with a quick stop in Vegas on the way home in Nov. Road Trip.
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"Indeed, nothing says "assault on many of our nation's bedrock principles" like large, peaceful (mostly), political assemblies. Our Founding Fathers are surely rolling over in their graves."Peaceful assembly? Petitioning for the redress of grievances? That's practically communism!I am astonished—astonished, I say—to find a politician supports something when it adds to his power, but does not support something almost identical, if he thinks it might detract from his power. I used to subscribe to the Alternet newsletters. I don't anymore, but you could always tell with the Democrats were winning, because it was evidence that democracy worked, and democracy was a good thing. A lot of praise for democracy among the ranks of Alternet, when Democrats were winning elections. When Republicans won, however, it was another story. Democracy was failing, it was the end of democracy, perhaps it was time to move to a post-democratic paradigm, where the people could somehow be prevented from voting against their own best interest (i.e., voting for Republicans). Similarly, protest and assembly is great, for Eric Cantor, when he thinks those people will show up and vote for him and his party. It's an assault on America and all that is good and holy when he thinks those people are working against him and his party.Politicians. Sigh.
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Just another thought, re: OWS and the Tea Party. I think all of us (except perhaps McWing, having been to many Tea Party gatherings) would find a high level of dissonance between your own experience of those events, if you were on the ground and betwixt and between them and talking to the people and experience it all directly, and the impression we get watching it on the news. It's been my experience that the news is a very poor conductor of information. Better than nothing, but I think our impression of the OWS folks, for good and for ill, and Tea Partiers (same thing) would be very different if directly experienced, rather than through experienced through a narrow media filter.
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*through experienced = experienced through.
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The Teapers are a genuine movement. The big deal was that there was real financial muscle that was put behind them. Without Crossroads GPS, Freedom Works, etc., I'm not sure how effective it would have been. I want to make clear that I don't consider it astroturf, cash was crucial. There was the infrastructure (both financial as well as various organizations), but the TP provided the energy for the reaction.As for OWS, we'll see what happens. There are organizations on the left as well as money too. To the TP, don't forget that this is MY country too. I find the notion that someone took it from you ridiculous. The rhetoric of taking the country back for yourself implies that you're going to take it from me. Over my dead body.BB
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BTW, Fairlington, have you read through the FAQ yet????
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I think the "Take My Country Back" rhetoric is pretty common on all sides of the political spectrum. Heck, Dean used it in his campaign speaches in '03 and '04. I for one, if it's any consolation, refuse to sacrifice my life in trying to stop a political opponent from being duly elected, and know of or even seen anybody write that they would. Why would you?
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Troll, I agree that the "take my country back" rhetoric is common, but it gets exacerbated from the Right when combined with things like "you're either for us or against us" and "liberals are traitors". Add that to "I want the President to fail" and "The most important thing is to make him a one-term President" and it feels like piling on.
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"I think the "Take My Country Back" rhetoric is pretty common on all sides of the political spectrum. "I have to agree. And the most common response to "we're going to take our country back (ahem, from you)" is "oh, no, you're not, I'm going to take my country back from you" . . . I understand the sentiment (dad made me loan you my car and you're not checking the air pressure and you're using regular gas, not premium, and what the hell did you add a spoiler? To my car??? ) but clearly America is a very big tent country. We're not going to be "taking it back" from our fellow Americans—that really makes no sense. I think the sentiment might be better expressed as "you don't know how to steer the car, so we're taking the steering wheel back". It's not that it's not your car, too, and that you shouldn't get to sit in the car–just that we think you suck at driving, so we're going to drive. And, God willing, there will always be a good driver like us at the wheel from now on.Any time there's not, you're going to hear it. "That's a pot hole! A said–it's a pot hole–no, godammit, I told you to watch out for that pothole!"
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michgoose; "you're either for us or against us" — Now, that's definitely a universal sentiment. There's a reason I used to be a liberal and I'm not any more, and that sentiment, expressed by certain (well, to be fair, let's call them leftists) got me started down the path the full-fledged conservaliciousness."and "liberals are traitors""Well, that's unhelpful, but I've heard quite a bit, from the left, about how the GOP is intentionally trying to torpedo the economy and intentionally make people suffer in order to discredit Obama. Now, I'm not saying they aren't, necessarily, but that's the same spirit in which the right suggested that liberals are "traitors"–meaning that they intentionally do damage to the country in order to further their own political and ideological goals. Not saying they are, btw. ""I want the President to fail" Most folks on the opposite side of the spectrum want their opposite number to fail at implementing their agenda. The correct interpretation of that sentiment should be "I want the president to fail . . . at raising taxes. I want the president to fail . . . to start another pre-emptive war. I want the president to fail . . . to nationalize healthcare." The left, and the Democrats, were not rooting for the success of George W. Bush, and for much the same reasons. ""The most important thing is to make him a one-term President""Yeah, I don't think that should ever be the most important thing. But taking the country back is a common sentiment:http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0324-12.htmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campaign_for_America%27s_Future#.22Take_Back_America.22_conferencehttp://www.winningbackamerica.com/And I'll remind you of Hoffa's recent introduction of Barack Obama: "They’ve got a war, they got a war with us and there’s only going to be one winner. It’s going to be the workers of Michigan, and America. We’re going to win that war . . . President Obama, this is your army. We are ready to march. Let’s take these son of bitches out and give America back to an America where we belong."
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Goose – I was making the point that passion isn't limited to one group. Even us folks in the center left. "Over my dead body" was chosen carefully. It is terminology with a long history and clear meaning. There is an assumption that 2012 is going to be like 2010. I wish to disabuse folks of this notion.As a group, I strongly oppose the agenda of the Tea Party. I think that the new Reps would happily blow up the economy to prove a point. Nearly did a couple of months ago. Then there comes the Constitution. Somehow, the better part of a century of legal decisions on constitutionality is wrong BECAUSE I SAID SO. Carrying a pocket copy of the constitution makes you an expert no more than carrying a copy of the periodic table makes you a chemist.I will make no personal attacks and did not. As for ideas, let the fur fly.BB
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Carrying a copy of the periodic table *doesn't* make me a chemist? This is very disappointing to learn.
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S'all right. I've been doing research for 20 years and I'll still don't understand.Paul
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I recently had to build a model of a chlorine atom. I mean, my daughter did. Three points were taken off because we didn't bring in and example of chlorine, meaning chlorine gas. I'm not enamored of my daughter's advanced science class.
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