Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojktI can’t remember if I’ve ever mentioned on this blog how much I like Matt Taibbi’s work. He’s an excellent investigator and even better writer–it would almost be worth getting a subscription to Rolling Stone just to read his column. Today’s is about the Attorneys General settlement with the big banks and how it’s falling apart. . . which is a good thing (full disclosure: I shamelessly stole the idea for this post from jnc4p, who posted the link over on The Plum Line).
If it does get done, expect a great deal of public debate over whether or not the size of the settlement was sufficient. Did the banks pay enough? Should they have paid ten billion more? Twenty? Even I engaged in a little bit of that some weeks ago.
But if and when that debate takes place, it will actually obscure the real issue, because this settlement is not about getting money from the banks. The deal being contemplated is actually the opposite: a giant bailout.
In fact, any federal foreclosure settlement along the lines of what’s been proposed will amount to a last round of post-2008-crisis bailouts. I talked to one foreclosure activist over the weekend who put it this way: “[The AG settlement] will be a bigger bailout than TARP.”
How? The math actually makes a hell of a lot of sense, when you look at it closely.
[A] private analyst this summer was estimating that just one bank, Bank of America, could face more in damages than the Obama administration and the AGs are now trying to “wrest” from all the major banks, combined, for all their liabilities.
Just a few days ago, news of more such suits came in. An Irish company called Sealink Funding is suing Chase and Bank of America, seeking $4.5 billion combined in connection to losses in mortgage-backed securities sold to them by those banks. Meanwhile, a German bank, Landesbank Baden-Wurttemberg, is suing Chase for an additional $500 million in losses.
These huge amounts – a few billion here, a half a billion there – are coming from single companies, directed at single banks. And think about the Bank of America settlement for $8.5 billion: what’s the usual payoff in a lawsuit settlement? Ten cents on the dollar? Five?
In fact, the settlement amount in that case was just 2% of the face value of the loans when they were securitized ($424 billion), and represented just 4% of the principal still outstanding ($221 billion).
Why do those figures matter? Because the way these securitizations were structured, legally, Bank of America is obligated to buy back any loans that were sold fraudulently at face value – that is part of the legal language in the “pooling and servicing agreements” under which all of these mortgages were pooled.
So minus a settlement, Bank of America – one bank — had a potential liability of $424 billion just from its Countrywide holdings! And it got off for $8.5 billion, a major victory.
All of which puts in perspective the preposterously small size of the proposed AG settlement. $20 billion would be a lousy number if we were just talking about Bank of America. But all the big banks combined?
To recap the crime: the banks lent money to firms like Countrywide, who in turn created billions in dicey loans, who then sold them back to the banks, who chopped them up and sold them to, among other things, your state’s worker retirement funds.
So this is bankers from Deutsche and Goldman and Bank of America essentially stealing the retirement nest eggs of firemen, teachers, cops, and other actors, as well as the investment monies of foreigners and hedge fund managers. To repeat: this was Wall Street hotshots stealing money from old ladies.
Filed under: TBTF | Tagged: Matt Taibbi, TARP |
All Things in Moderation 
Speaking of Plum-Line. Ugh. I find myself hoping the comments stop working for me. Although I need to be able to resist via strength of will. I just end up getting engaged in conversations that, at the end of them, I wonder what the heck I was doing. Why am I devoting that sort of time arguing about just how much the US does care about the education of disadvantaged children when the response is "you're off topic; the topic is we are bad because we currently don't buy iPads for poor children to use at home". Find an example where my own very school system made an attempt to do something like that–and it doesn't count, we're talking about federal policy, and besides, everything sucks. I'm venting. I shouldn't have to vent. I shouldn't spend my time discussing things where I end up feeling the need to vent afterwards. That makes no sense. It lacks in common sense (see previous post). Nothing against Greg (it's a fine launching point for conversation) but I'm to prone to let myself get dragged into non-productive conversations. I need to go cold turkey again. If I'm not having the discussion here, I just need to be working . . . All right. I'm done. Except to say, I don't know who oughta pay for banks repackaging crappy mortgages and selling them as AAA+ investments, but, dang it, somebody ought to.
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I think this is really scary. The amount of money we're talking about is so huge as to be a virtual Armageddon to the banks. And who do they try to blame, all those little guys who've fallen on hard times and can't seem to make their mortgage payments any longer. That's always the fallback position, well the loans are going into foreclosure because people aren't paying their mortgages so it doesn't matter that the paper work is fraudulent in this case. Ha!!!!!!!!I just finished reading a piece over at Naked Capitalism claiming that slightly over 30% of the homeowners in America are one paycheck away from defaulting on their loans. And that goes up the income scale to $100K a year. And Wall Street and the banks wonder why everyone's mad?
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Kevin–I know what you mean (commenting on PL); I've given up trying to have debates over there and just swap pleasantries with people in order to keep my toe in the water. Still stalking willows (I saw him once on the Morning Plum, but haven't caught up to him yet). Have we decided on a food item to tempt people with today? :-)lms–Armageddon is exactly right (and, actually, the word that Matt used to describe it in his column–great minds!). It literally boggled my mind when I read that–I wonder what the dollar amount is compared to the GDP of some countries?!?
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Mich:is that the right term, Scott?No. Collateralized Debt Obligations, or CDO's, are not derivatives. They are debt securities collateralized with, in this case, commercial and residential mortgages.BTW, this:So this is bankers from Deutsche and Goldman and Bank of America essentially stealing the retirement nest eggs of firemen, teachers, cops, and other actors, as well as the investment monies of foreigners and hedge fund managers.…is wrong. Or at least not established by anything he's presented. The fact that a bank sells an asset to someone which subsequently declines in value is not an example of "stealing" anything from anybody. If the selling bank knew or had reason to believe before selling the assets that the collateral was going to go into default, then it might properly be called "stealing". And that very may well have occurred in some instances. But to suggest that it was done as standard operating procedure on all or even most of these CDOs is pretty absurd.
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Michigoose: bavarian chocolate soufflé. OT: http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/tue-october-4-2011-michael-lewisSame episode suekzoo posted clips from. Referring specifically to the Mitt Romney segment, where he quotes Mitt Romney sounding largely identical to Obama. Which again leads me to my conclusion that a Romney admin will be very much a continuation of the Obama admin. Tea Party Mitt is like a tuxedo. You just wear it for the ceremony–once that's over, it's back to the work clothes.
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" But to suggest that it was done as standard operating procedure on all or even most of these CDOs is pretty absurd."And that's my big complaint with Taibbi. He seems to make at least one claim per article that is extremely compelling, poetically articulated and vastly overstated. Regarding the settlement amount (disclaimer I am not particularly familiar with the AG suit), considering fraud cases are difficult, uncertain and would involve considerable legal expenses, it isn't surprising a settlement would appear quite small in comparison to the alleged damages. That said the settlement numbers do seem quite small and yes, this sure seems like another bailout.
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Scott: thanks. Corrected.Kevin: Gotcha. Stalking resumed.NoVA: OOOhhhhh–what'd I miss?ashot: Vast overstatements draw traffic to the site and readers' eyes, though, no?
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Michi- Yes, and if I were Taibbi's editor I would have less of a problem with it. To be honest the statements don't bother me that much other than that they undermine the well-supported and well-reasoned statements/arguments in his columns and they allow people to simply discard him otu of hand. Not saying I agree with someone who does that, merely that it gives them ammo to do so.
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michi — what's your email. i don't want to clutter up your post.
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NoVA:I don't think I've been missed. Surely you can't have been not missed more than I'm not missed!
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NoVA: it's on the "Permissions" tab (Design –> Settings –> Permissions); since we're "public" now I don't want to list it here.Scott: Chris is positively pining away for you. He doesn't have anybody nearly as much fun to vent at any more! 🙂
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Ahem. Surely cao of a thousand names has to miss me as much as anyone. He has nowhere to place three dozen of his insults when I don't comment for a day. His life has again lost meaning without us. I would comment over there, but I haven't been able to for several weeks unless logged in through my work servers, and I'm just sick of the technical morass. More like a bog than a blog.I did see a hilarious comment from cao grousing that there is no screening so any idiot can post (directed to Jake).
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NoVA, last Friday pissed me off as well. I probably should have left my big mouth shut, but I hate it when they gang up on someone like you or bannedagain who's just trying to make an observation. It was particularly ludicrous as they agreed with your first comment but then didn't have an answer to the logical conclusion your question posed so attacked the messenger. Don't get me started.ScottI think the AG investigations in NY, DE, CA and NV will go the distance in unraveling the actual legal malfeasance of the banks and mortgage industry in the financial collapse of the housing industry. Some of us are celebrating a real investigation as opposed to a swept under the carpet pennies on the dollar settlement. I do fear what it will mean though, when all is said and done, and how much worse things will be once we know the truth and want them to pay. I don't think the banks can afford it frankly and I'm not smart enough to figure out what that will mean.
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Mich…it is very weird.And I suspect that this is what NoVA is talking about. See his thread started at 9:41am.I suspect that this is also what prompted shrink's drive-by post over the weekend.
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I have to say, though, that the commentary from the right is of much lower quality on PL now that you guys aren't hanging out there. jnc4p is holding up his end well, but other than that it's mostly Brigade and Battleground.I'm over there now mainly trying to lure a couple of folks into commenting over here also. I stick around until the software starts acting up.
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I went to try and immediately regretted it. And, frankly, it looks to me, sometimes, that several of the prominent lefties are really trying to drum jnc4p and banned out. Though some people do enjoy the fisticuffs . . . but, I dunno, I show up and I get a better reception from Ethan (who, at one point, was my sworn enemy–made Cao's stalking of QB look tame by comparison) than from some other folks I would have thought better of . . . anyway, I personally think I like it here better. I'm staying out of Plumline for the rest of the day. At least. I'd like to pledge forever, but that's like swearing off cheap microwave hamburgers. Probably a good idea, but I doubt it's going to happen. BTW, I've gotten increasingly irritated by Shrink's drive-by-i-ness. Not the post, per se, but the fact it was a drive-by. And not even a drive-by–if it had been a drive by about risotto, that would have been one thing. But to just drop by to toss a bomb and then be on your merry way. Well, it would really be against my own established criteria for the tenor of the site to start calling people douche bags, so I won't do it, except indirectly, the way I just did. 😉 But, I mean, seriously? What was that? Never mind. I'm tired and I've got a cold and I'm clearly too irritable. That being said, the thread Scott links to is a classic. I knew I should have gone with my original blog title: Super Secret Cabal of Mystery.
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"I'd like to pledge forever, but that's like swearing off cheap microwave hamburgers."What? That seems like it should be easy to give up. Liam's criticism, and to some extent Shrink's, of NoVa is awfully similar to the criticism the Right made of lawyers and law firms that represented detainees. What day was Shrink's drive-by, I briefly looked, but must have missed it.
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I went another round or two with chris yesterday as well. I'm not going to do it anymore though. I'll just drop the occasional link in and say hi to johnbannedagain and a couple of others I still enjoy reading over there.I like to congratulate Greg on the good analysis when he does that as well. And I still read most of Greg's links, that's how I remain a biased and committed liberal after all.
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Here it is ashot. What was funny was that scott, kevin and I went around in circles for two days over it before we realized shrink wasn't participating, lol.
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"What? That seems like it should be easy to give up."You'd think so. But I looooooovvveee cheap microwave hamburgers. 99¢ worth of meaty-cheesy goodness.
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Yeah, NoVA e-mailed me the link and it's what Scott put up there. Who knew that we were such a sneaky, evil bunch?!?I have to say, my favorite insult was Liam calling NoVA a "Virgin Hooker"–when I read over that the first time I thought he was referring to the airline. LOLI mostly read Benen to keep my lefty bleeding-heart liberalness up to snuff; he's the one who got me pointed toward the PL in the first place.
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"What was funny was that scott, kevin and I went around in circles for two days over it before we realized shrink wasn't participating"And I just assumed he was serious, and was going to at least participate in a post that he made, so I addressed him several times, even though he wasn't there . . . oh, he made me look stupid. Good job, Mr. Shrink. Good show.You went another round with Chris, lms? Damn, now I've got to go look at all the threads I missed at Plum Line yesterday. What thread was it?
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If it's "meaty-cheesy goodness" you seek, you need a Käsekrainer. wurst with cheese already in it. that, along with a small Brötchen (roll) and your good to go. oh and a hefeweizen.
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KW: microwave French bread pizza for me. Nasty, I know, but there's just something about the sauce. . .
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Dang it, NoVA. Now I'm hungry again.But since it is October, no hefeweizens — pumpkin beers!Pumpkin beers deliver fall flavors in a bottle
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Mike, I like the cut of your jib. My favorite pumpkin beer actually is a combo of a pumpkin ale and a stout at the Old Peninsula which is a decent little restaurant/brewery in Kalamzoo. I used to get a growler of that combo (they called it a Jack-o-Lantern) before Monday Night Football games.
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Here you go Kevin, but this is the last time for me. I'm done obsessing over the Plumline. And since I don't eat much meat, and never a hamburger or a hot dog, I'll take a nice ahi tuna thank you very much, and ice cream for dessert.
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I had a pumpkin beer last week for the first time. Was expecting grossness, but it was terrific.
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I've had mixed results with the pumpkin stuff. but i can't pass up a good hefe. especially a good dunkle (dark) hefeweizen. Franziskaner makes a good one.
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Thanks! I was trying to comb through Plumline and it was taking forever. ;)I knew it. I've got to quote some of what you said. What follows is lmsinca's brilliance and thoughtfulness on Plumline:———————–You seem to have the wrong impression of the alternate site. We're not competing with Greg or selecting based on political persuasion. We're trying something different and attempting to leave some of the close minded ideology behind to see if there's anything we can discover about ourselves or each other that might be useful. It's just a different approach. Most people are still commenting at both sites and we're trying to find common ground when we can, which is obviously not all that easy. We've developed friendships over the years and we're hoping to maintain those without so much background noise. I'm sorry you're offended that I posted about my daughter, I wasn't offended when you told us about Vietnam and what it's like living there. Human stories are sometimes the most interesting stories especially when so many people are trying to figure out how we move forward under the "new" circumstances. When you take political ideology out of the mix I'm finding most of us share more than we realize with one another. We still argue politics but with some new rules which I'm finding useful. We're just trying to listen to each other without having our minds made up with pre-conceived opinions about all liberals, conservatives or libertarians. You never know what you'll find if you take time to scratch the surface.————-Maybe there's just too much cynicism here for some of us. I personally believe it poisons the well. This is a political blog so I understand the divisions, but it's exhausting always being right. I don't find attacking libertarians or bigots, is that shorthand for conservative, all that illuminating. You accused me once of being a pollyanna for defending johnbannedagain and then last week liam accused me of nailing myself to a cross for defending NoVA. I just don't find it that helpful to be so aggressive with people I happen to disagree with. If you think that makes you a better communicator more power to you, I don't agree though.———————————Okay, me again. Excellent, lmsinca. Excellent. I couldn't agree more if you put me in a big echo chamber and I spent all day saying complimentary things to myself. 😉 Really, you got it exactly. Much better than I would have done in that same circumstance, I am sure.
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"and never a hamburger or a hot dog"Alas, I've eaten both practically simultaneously. 😉
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QB- Some of them are gross and some are just meh. I don't care much for the Blue Moon Pumpkin Ale. Ims- I'm all but speechless at the prospect of a microwave hamburger. Assuming you eat your ahi tuna steak rare, it doesn't take much longer to cook that than it would to cook a microwave hamburger.
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I used to get my microwave cheeseburgers at the dollar store, but now I get them at Walgreens. 99¢!
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lms,You were positively eloquent and magnanimous in that exchange. Seriously.The pumpkin brew I recently had was Hoppin Frog. Liked it a lot.
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It's not about the time it takes ashot, it's the quality of the food, lol. I haven't had a piece of beef, pork or lamb since the day before my 18th birthday, it's a looooong story, but I'll eat a little fish and the occasional chicken or turkey.
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In Chris's defense, I will say that his last comment ("Compare my presence lately to a year ago.") is, actually true. He's calmed down a lot–don't know what happened other than he took about a week off from the PL around six months ago and when he came back he had stopped throwing quite so many death threats around.He did still stalk, qb, but I think that was a bit of a Pavlovian response. 🙂
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I actually buy my beef in bulk from a farm in central Virginia. quarter cow and half a hog lasts about a year and fill a chest freezer. loads cheaper on a per pound basis too.
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Knock it off you guys. I'm just trying to explain, not even so much to the people I'm responding to, but others there what we're trying to do. At least that's the way I view it. But thanks and now let's move on.I'd rather talk about food and the economy.
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lms is one of the reasons i hung around pl for as long as i did.
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NoVA: your idea with the beef is what I'm going to do next year after I buy a house (and a chest freezer)–community cow!
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lmsina- I know it's not about the time, I recently made a very average batch of mole that took several hours to make. My point was that if it is about time, which it has to be if you are eating microwave hamburgers like kevin, then a rare tuna steak won't take up much more of your time.
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I've long said Chris is a really smart guy. But to actively engage in contretemps with lmsinca . . . that's like starting a fist fight with mother Teresa or something. Trying to stomp on Tinkerbell. I just picture a roomful of people looking at him reproachfully and shaking their heads slowly. "Not cool, man. Not cool."
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Just saw the knock it off post. So, now I knock it off. Yay, lmsinca!
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best decision we ever made. cut our weekly grocery bill significantly. granted, it's not inexpensive up front. i think the stuff taste better, particularly the pork. grass fed, no antibiotics, etc.
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I really would like to do some commenting on the occupiers but am too busy until tomorrow pm.I think I will go occupy Cheesecake factory; I want cheesecake and they won't give it to me. I am angry and fearful, therefore I deserve it.
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ashot, yeah I get it now. Plus the tuna is considerably more expensive so a rarity around here.I grew up in a family of butchers, my grandfather and every one of his 5 brother who survived WWI were all butchers. My dad would have been one also except for the GI Bill which helped him get into USC. Yay for college. Anyway, I ended up with a real aversion to meat. I haven't figured out why I can clean and eat a fish or a chicken though.
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speaking of chicken — i did the "beer-can up the chicken" thing a few weeks ago with a side-box style side smoker with maple logs. it was fantastic. about 3 hours on the smoker. plus you have to drink about half the beer before you put the can into the chicken.
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"I've long said Chris is a really smart guy."You are quite wrong about that, I think, although I suppose derangment and blinding hatred and anger could explain some of it.I dusted it up with lms on occasion long ago. Traded some jabs. Threw some elbows. I don't mind some good snark sometimes. But all the Nazi, bigot, death-wish stuff, and unswerving intellectual dishonesty and bad faith … boring. You-know-who is only one flamboyant practicioner. … moving along, moving along … : )
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When I was growing up we raised five head of steer and 67 chickens every year (my Dad, the engineer, had done the math and figured out that by selling four of the steers it would pay for the fifth–so free beef–and 67 chickens was the optimum number for dinners for a family of four). I couldn't believe what meat tasted like when I moved out and went to college! I've been pining for a community cow ever since, and just found out last year that there is a way to do it here in Utah.One year I named our cattle Kobe, Roast, Rump, Flank and Burger. Kobe got beer, but I'm not sure that he actually tasted any different than other years.
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"I think I will go occupy Cheesecake factory; I want cheesecake and they won't give it to me. I am angry and fearful, therefore I deserve it."Good luck. While I think political protest is certainly a valid way to get things done, and is what people are going to do when the economy is bad–they're gonna go yell at the folks they think have all the money . . . I attended art school during the first gulf war, and was struck by the unserious narcissism of all the protests (and I considered myself pretty liberal at the time). There was excitement–what an excellent time to congratulate ourselves and get in the paper and flatter ourselves and yell at people–but it all seemed extraordinarily ill-considered and superficial, to me. Playing. They were excited by the war, disappointed when it ended so abruptly (with sit ins and performance art pieces already scheduled–how dare they!) . . . I cannot speak from the current protesters, but the dressing up like zombies? This is an excuse to party, goof off, get together with other folks with intense emotional feelings about the injustice of it all, and be part of a movement. Belong to something special. In my opinion–that's what it looks like, to me, though of course my view is colored by my experience. Which is not saying they shouldn't do it. That's like saying college students shouldn't party. Why not go protest and be part of something larger than yourself and eventually learn that you are largely impotent against the machine? What is a Great Recession good for, if not that? 😉 Again, good luck on your occupation of the Cheesecake Factory. Demand some strawberry cheesecake with a slice of justice.
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Mich:don't know what happened other than he took about a week off from the PL around six months ago and when he came back he had stopped throwing quite so many death threats around.I know what happened. He got banned from PL, twice, first as cao then as cheopsys. When he returned as apocalypse several days later, suddenly all of his insults aimed at qb and me (sorry, McWing, always a bridesmaid…) were slightly toned down and always veiled as third person references (ie "the porcine libertarian who…") in order to avoid falling afoul of the no personal attack clause in PL's commenting rules. The change is simply a strategic attempt to keep from getting banned again. And I bet it's just killing him. 😉
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That is hilarious, michi. One good thing for you — when everything falls apart and society collapses, and we are reduced to subsistence living, you will have skillz.
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"You are quite wrong about that"Oh, he's smart. You can be very smart and extraordinarily asocial. Look, if he develops anything that actually works in Microsoft's development products, he's smart. Not lmsinca smart, but smart, nonetheless.
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Scott,More than twice. He was also GoldandTanzanite and one or two other names. I always instantly spotted his reappearance. (I'd have thought he used to be Gasman, except the latter's style was equally distinctive, and Gasman claimed to be a Christian.)There's a story you can find on the web about how he and some past mortal enemy destroyed one discussion board with their flame war. Boy did my eyes roll when I saw what he said to lms about having started a discussion board for elevated discussion. Riiight.
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Here's a funny chicken story. Right before our fifth wedding anniversary I told my husband that I was craving chicken, it was on my taboo list until then, so he went out and bought 12 Rhode Island Reds for our anniversary. He didn't know that you could buy them sexed though and we ended up with 12 roosters. The neighbors were not pleased. He and my son butchered every one of them one day and we froze them and gave them to his aunt because they're tough. Eventually we got our hens though.
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"I know what happened. He got banned from PL, twice"I dunno about you guys, but I reported him constantly. Every time he went genocidal. Or even toned it down to mass murder. Report, report, report. Now he'll get pinked, so I suspect he does tone it down therefore.I think he also might've gotten blocked as Gold and Tanzanite. Anyway, lmsinca's right, no more Plumline gossip. Hard to help, when you're an old biddy like me. But still . . . I had to cite lmsinca's response, it's like watching Rowdy Roddy Piper get his ass handed to him by a judo master. Lmsinca is kind of like Shifu in kungfu panda–taking out challengers thrice her size without working up a sweat.And, yes, I'm knocking it off. Right now, I swear.
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Scott: You're probably right. And he and I flamed at each other a couple of times (about his Trutherism and when ObL was killed), but you and qb were very special to him. ;->qb: You should have seen chicken-slaughter day! The best day of the year next to Christmas (chickens are stupid, mean birds the will attack the hand that's feeding them). Just call me Frontier Mama.Although here in Utah there are even easier pickings: if you know which of your neighbors are LDS you just steal their year's worth of food that they've got stockpiled. j/k (mostly. . .)
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Michigoose: WTC7 was clearly a controlled demolition. Come on.http://wtc7.net/Although it wasn't the CIA. This was an extra-dimensional saboteurs sent from Earth Beta to perform this particular act of "terrorism". But Dick Cheney (whose poor health is in fact due to his frequent jumps between this earth and one or several alternate earths) knew it was coming. Oh, yes, he did. I mean, come on. It's just common sense. : )
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I mean, what the hell?http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence/videos/docs/wtc7_collapse2.mpgThat's just freaky.
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I'm not obsessed with PL but I'm not going to obsess over not obsessing, either. We are a sort of migrant population, expats from PL. ; )Greg keeps asking if there are tech problems. If I could comment, I could say, yes. Haha. Too bad.
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i'm off. everyone enjoy your 99cent burgers and/or cheesecakes, pumpkin beers, tuna and free range roosters.
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manana, NoVA
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michi, we turned your thread into a gossip/food fest but look at all the hits you got. I'm moving in with you when the end comes though, qb's right, and it's not that far to Utah.qb, I'm preparing myself for battle tomorrow re the "occupiers", get ready.
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