Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojktVital Statistics:
| Last | Change | Percent | |
| S&P Futures | 1462.4 | -2.8 | -0.19% |
| Eurostoxx Index | 2688.7 | -12.9 | -0.48% |
| Oil (WTI) | 93.32 | 0.0 | 0.04% |
| LIBOR | 0.303 | 0.000 | 0.00% |
| US Dollar Index (DXY) | 79.86 | 0.085 | 0.11% |
| 10 Year Govt Bond Yield | 1.80% | -0.03% | |
| RPX Composite Real Estate Index | 191.7 | 0.3 |
Markets are weaker this morning after the World Bank cut its global growth forecast. Goldman and JP Morgan both reported better than expected earnings. Mortgage applications rose 15% last week and the CPI showed that inflation remains under control. Industrial production rose .3% and capacity utilization rose to 78.8%. Bonds and MBS are up.
The National Association Homebuilders Confidence index held at 47 in January, the highest level since April of 2006. A reading of 50 represents the point where builders view conditions as neutral. Conditions improved in all areas of the country, with the West performing the best, while the Midwest and Northeast performing the worst. This is the second sentiment report that has the “what a difference a year makes” theme.
The CoreLogic Home Price Index rose 7.4% YOY in Nov 2012. This is the largest gain since May of 2006. Excluding distressed sales, home price increased nationally by 6.7%. December’s gain is forecast to be down .5% MOM (reflecting the typical seasonal pattern) and will be up 8.4% YOY. Mark Fleming, the Chief Economist made a point about QM – “that the recently released Qualified Mortgage rules issued by the CFPB are not expected to significantly restrict credit availability relative to today.” I am sure Cordray is breathing a sigh of relief on that one… the point of the QM rule was to expand credit.
Bank of America is intent on growing the mortgage business again after a hasty retreat in 2011. Of course this meant they missed the mother of all refinancing booms. They exited the wholesale business and basically ceded the market leader position to Wells Fargo. It also signals that they believe the worst is behind them with respect to Countrywide.
It is looking more and more like Republicans will not force a showdown on the debt ceiling (though “clean” debt ceiling increases have been rare in the past). The polls aren’t with them and the politics aren’t there. Republicans will probably save spending cut demands for the sequester and the continuing resolution.
It looks like the case against Stevie Cohen has hit a wall.
Filed under: Morning Report |
All Things in Moderation 
Jerry Brown makes quite an effective spokesman for austerity:
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He was terrific. He is at the right time and place. Probably cannot be replicated at a national level.
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It helps that he has no interest in higher office and is at an age in life where he just doesn’t give a shit about what most people think, but still appears to be in full command of his faculties.
I saw your post on PL as well, and I agree that the fact that he noted that the Republicans in the state legislature were just representing the views of their constituents was refreshing.
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Thanks, JNC. I went back and saw you had commented, too.
Greg Sargent lies about guns deaths repeatedly. He talks about “epidemic” and “tens of thousands”. I have been a proponent of registration and limitation on the sale of certain weapons since 1964 and I am a gun owner. I understand that Newtown is an emotional lever that proponents of registration like me can use. But Sargent simply won’t be bothered to know gun deaths are half what they were in 1991 and generally on a downtrend, or that the number of gun deaths is about ten thousand, not tens of thousands. I call this to his attention but he ignore it. I don’t think liberal gun bashing and exaggeration plays well and it makes me think I can never get the reasonable gun control most American gun owners would agree to in a heartbeat, because the lies give the gun lobby a target.
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Interesting thoughts from Ace:
It’s simply too much to expect a political party to stand up to voters and say, “no”. Politics is a market and voters have become consumers. If the GOP as a whole or an individual candidate won’t give the customer what they want, they will find someone else to do business with. Consumers don’t care about the health of the places they shop, they care that they get what they want. If Brand A doesn’t have it but Brand B does, who cares so long as their needs are met.
What America needs is a movement that will not just tell people “no” but also convince them to stop being a consumer of government and look at themselves as they were meant to…an owner of the government. Once you own something your value set shifts. Owners care about efficiency, quality and the long term survival of the organization. Owners invest not simply take out.
He’s diagnosed the problem, but I think it is beyond a cure. I don’t think a movement could ever convince enough people. I think at this point only events will ever be able to do that. Unfortunate events.
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lms:
Are you an investor?
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Are you kidding, I own the place……………………….not really. Great name though.
No I’m not. I’m in oil/energy companies and pharmaceuticals right now, plus a side bet in a reit etf. I’m only invested about 30% right now, my mistake.
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“But Sargent simply won’t be bothered to know gun deaths are half what they were in 1991 and generally on a downtrend”
I know I’m the extremist and whatnot … but it’s exactly this that causes people to take a hard line. I’m opposed to whatever Obama and Greg want to do. b/c I don’t trust them to be honest brokers. they’re are probably good ideas in Obama’s list. don’t care. why would I cut a deal with people I don’t trust. they’ll just alter the deal later and tell me to kindly cram it.
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NoVA, you prove my point.
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Scott, I won’t be around much anymore, just so you know. Now that Emily’s gone and you and McWing are back my work here is done, so to speak. You happened to catch me as I was reading the comments while I was waiting for my lunch to warm up, so I responded.
I’ll read the posts and comments occasionally though so I hope you all keep it up, some interesting discussions lately, just not my bag right now.
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lms:
Now that…you and McWing are back my work here is done.
No need to blame yourself. It’s not your fault I stared commenting again. 🙂
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Hahaha, you know I wanted you to come back, I doubt I was persuasive though. I’m sure it was what you wanted to do regardless of anything I said or did. I think this is a great site for all the “wonks” (not nerds)……………………….and I just don’t have the resources to keep up. I’ll stick to learning for now or making throw away comments at the PL.
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i wish you did own lululemon. my wife buys that stuff. and the dog promptly eats it.
she won’t eat the stuff from Target, but the expensive designer stuff.
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Good piece on Colin Powell and racist Republicans.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/337835/powell-tragedy-victor-davis-hanson#more
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Agreed, George.
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Now they tell us, with the election safely over. I guess the Democrats should own it, no?
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McWing (from the link):
Corporate chiefs in recent months have pleaded publicly with Republicans to raise their taxes for the sake of deficit reduction…
I’m not sure whether the author of that line was taking an ironic dig at the intelligence of those corporate chiefs or his own readers.
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I took a beginner yoga class a few years ago and the instructor snickered at the clothes of the lady in the lululemon gear. I think it’s seen as the uniform of a suburban dilettante in the yoga world. It’s definitely pricey.
There was a terrible murder at a Lululemon store in Bethesda recently. A store clerk killed her coworker at closing time and tried to blame it on a robber.
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“Jerry Brown makes quite an effective spokesman for austerity:
…
JERRY BROWN: Yes. Well, the lesson is one that you have got to make tough choices. And you have to live within your means. And that means you have to not do everything you want to. But you also have to raise more money.”
That’s not an argument for or against austerity, its an argument for tough choices, which can include both spending cuts and raising revenue.
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I get the distinction.
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Oh my. What an incredibly weird story. Just when you thought Notre Dame was making a return to glory.
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Notre Dame knew the story was complete baloney back before the New Year and let the media ride with it through the BCS game. I really don’t care whether Manti Te’o is the world’s most gullible sap or a closeted athlete with a dead ‘Canadian’ girlfriend. The role of the Notre Dame public relations staff in this fraud deserves investigation.
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The role of the Notre Dame public relations staff in this fraud deserves investigation.
The MSM deserves some rebuke as well for not even doing the most basic fact check of the story. Sports Illustrated needs to hire more diligent reporters.
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Mike:
The MSM deserves some rebuke as well for not even doing the most basic fact check of the story.
Agree wholeheartedly.
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I remember that murder, yellow. IIRC, the victim confronted the killer over stolen merchandise? I’ll probably not mention to the wife that she’s a dilettante.
re: ND — It’s nice to see yet another organization that I started to put some trust in blow it. At least nobody was hurt in this one. My dad’s side of the familiy is a big Penn State. My wife is going with the “he was a sheltered kid” line for now. IMHO, that doesn’t make any sense at all.
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I’ll probably not mention to the wife that she’s a dilettante.
I probably qualify as well. I do one hour of week in my basement to a DVD. I just can’t buy into the whole mysticism around it. I just see it as a good stretching routine between bicycle rides. But women do look hot in yoga pants so I would hate to disrupt that trend.
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The press didn’t check due to the symbiotic nature of reporting anymore. What is supposed to be adversarial is now a partnership. ND and NBC might was well be one in the same when it comes to the football program.
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I agree that the media should receive some criticism for running with the dead girlfriend story. The whole thing just emphasizes that the media only cares about a good story or narrative. It makes you wonder how many similar stories are out there that don’t receive the attention because it does not involve a prominent athlete or university. Some sources are reporting that ESPN had been sitting on the hoax story for more than a week, waiting for fact checking to come through. Where was that caution when they reported the made up girlfriend died?
Another interesting aspect of this is that ND hired a private investigator to look into whether their star player was duped, but two years ago it appears they made no effort to look into the possible rape of a student by a football player. The victim, Lizzy Seeberg, killed herself shortly after the alleged rape. Our priorities are so out of whack.
http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/21494409/no-charges-no-name-just-unanswered-questions-in-notre-dame-tragedy
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The Lizzy Seeberg irony that now the university is going to spend more resources investigating an imaginary girlfriend than a real rape is the stomach churning aspect of the story.
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oh god, the seeberg thing. my wife wrote a letter to ND about that. she got back a very nice letter that was basically a request for money.
when we got married, we starting getting mail from them addressed to Mr. and Mrs. NovA …. and she’s the alum, not me.
that stopped recently, but it really pissed her off. I of course, started referring to her as Mrs. NoVA at every opportunity.
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but it really pissed her off
My alma mater used to send out fund-raising requests addressed to “Mr.” or “Mrs.” for Ph.D.s and “Dr.” for M.D.s. I usually don’t care, but I figured the one place that should address me as “Dr.” is the institution that gave me a doctorate, especially when they are asking me for money.
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“bsimon, on January 16, 2013 at 9:04 pm said:
“Jerry Brown makes quite an effective spokesman for austerity:
…
JERRY BROWN: Yes. Well, the lesson is one that you have got to make tough choices. And you have to live within your means. And that means you have to not do everything you want to. But you also have to raise more money.”
That’s not an argument for or against austerity, its an argument for tough choices, which can include both spending cuts and raising revenue.”
Cutting spending and raising taxes to balance the budget is the definition of austerity.
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NoVA & Mark, I can’t think of a better example of “Politics as Usual’ than President Obama’s proposals on guns and the predictable reaction to it.
Also, if this is the standard for new measures then it covers a lot of ground:
Presumably the President will be supporting a nationwide “Stop and Frisk” policy and mandatory reporting by mental health professionals to the government under the theory that if even one life is saved it’s worth it.
I think that the NRA ad contrasting the security that Obama’s children get with the general public won’t be particularly effective at persuading people who don’t already agree with their position, but I have a hard time working up much outrage when the President himself uses children as props in his own presentation on the subject.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/closeread/2013/01/the-children-at-obamas-gun-speech.html
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I agree that neither side has much of a right to be outraged over Obam’s children being brought into this. But the NRA ad makes an idiotic comparison and their rhetorical question of “are his children more important than yours” is just an awful question. I already got into a debate about it on Facebook. Like you said I doubt the ad gains the NRA any converts, but I think it serves to push the two sides further apart.
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The answer, Ashot, is that no one’s child is as important as mine, but mine are not potential targets of kidnappers and terrorists, thank God.
Michael Dell’s wife Susan shops at Central Market with two bodyguards in full regalia who look like NFL linebackers, to boot.
It’s a different lifestyle.
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Agreed, Mark. Also, if my son Luke is kidnapped the whole county is not being held hostage. The other problem with the question is the implication that the value of a child is largely measured by the number of armed guards near them.
jnc- That quote form Obama is painful to read. I will see that philosophy seems to also reveal itself in many healthcare regulations: “If we can prevent one patient from receiving a treatment principally because it puts money in the doctor’s pocket, then we have an obligation to try.” Nevermind the overall impact on the costs and quality of health care.
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There were some sane folks at PL but I still felt slimed by association there this morning. There is a lot of Conventional Wisdom of the Left over there, much of it restated assumptions, much of it demonstrably false.
Of course, I feel that way when I haunt conservative blogs, too.
I was relieved when I had to leave, in order to work, although I was also relieved while there to have had the sidebar with NoVA about criminalization of drugs.
I remember why we started ATiM and I wish Kevin were here, as well as Lulu.
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jnc:
Presumably the President will be supporting a nationwide “Stop and Frisk” policy and mandatory reporting by mental health professionals to the government under the theory that if even one life is saved it’s worth it.
No more left hand turns in your car, either.
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No more left hand turns in your car, either.
That’s not likely to fly — lots of NASCAR fans out there.
Using kids as props is one thing, asserting falsehoods is another.
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” but mine are not potential targets of kidnappers and terrorists, thank God.”
Why do I as a parent then have to rely on good luck and a prompt, competent police response? I’m not trying to be a jerk, but the anti authoritarian in me relates to the NRA ad, in that Obama’s children are at higher risk, but your average child is not at zero risk either.
I’m not a believer in any sort of Federal standard here, though Obama is, even after mocking the NRA’s recommendation. If the local community wants more security, even if its parental volunteers to roam the halls armed, who am I to say no?
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If the local community wants more security, even if its parental volunteers to roam the halls armed, who am I to say no?
I’m on board with this one. If I don’t like it, then I can move.
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Tim and George – I am on board with this too. Is there a proposal to forbid school districts from enhancing their security in the proposed package?
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McWing:
I’m not a believer in any sort of Federal standard here, though Obama is, even after mocking the NRA’s recommendation. If the local community wants more security, even if its parental volunteers to roam the halls armed, who am I to say no?
Exactly. This is pretty much exactly what I was referring to the other day when I said (in a different context) that “we” don’t need to come up with an answer.
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“No more left hand turns in your car, either.”
It’s funny — but I ready/heard that UPS does that to save time/gas. so i started planning my errands to avoid left turns is possible. I don’t have data of course, but i sit at lights a lot less.
““are his children more important than yours” is just an awful question”
I don’t know. check out mat yglesias’ twitter feed. he seems to think the obama daughters are more important — not just they warrant protection as POTUS’ daughters (of course they do) — but that they’re simply more important. why? I don’t know.
the mandatory reporting that jnc mentioned is getting picked up in the health care trade press. mental health community doesn’t want this.
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I don’t know. check out mat yglesias’ twitter feed. he seems to think the obama daughters are more important
That brings up another problem with the question…more important to whom (who??)? Are they more important to the country? For reasons stated beloew, probably. More important to me? Nope. More important to Obama? Yes.
What do those answers mean with respect to whether or not we should have armed guards in school? In my opinion, nothing.
the mandatory reporting that jnc mentioned is getting picked up in the health care trade press. mental health community doesn’t want this.
Mandatory of what and to whom? At least in Michigan, mental health care providers have reporting obligations where an individual poses a risk to the public. I assume that’s a pretty standard state law around the country, but maybe I’m wrong.
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“asserting falsehoods is another”
The second link doesn’t seem to work.
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jnc:
I swear I’m not an idiot. It looks like the links are good when I post, but sometimes they end up disappearing.
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” For reasons stated beloew, probably.” I missed the reasons. on the twitter feed?
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I missed the reasons. on the twitter feed?
My reasoning is that a terrorist could kidnap the President’s children and be able to endanger the country through various demands that would likely never be made if my son was kidnapped. Although the more I think about it, would or should the response be any different?
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Why do I as a parent then have to rely on good luck and a prompt, competent police response?
You have no self-esteem issues if you cannot distinguish between yourself and the President of the United States. You might as well ask why he gets a helicopter to fly on wherever he goes and you don’t. If anything presidents seem to try to minimize the disruption the security apparatus tries to interject. Jimmy Carter sent his daughter to DC public schools and look what happened to her. That’s just taking the man-of-the people stuff too far.
I’m not trying to be a jerk,
When did you turn over the new leaf? >>>>wink<<<<
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“the mandatory reporting that jnc mentioned is getting picked up in the health care trade press. mental health community doesn’t want this.
Mandatory of what and to whom? At least in Michigan, mental health care providers have reporting obligations where an individual poses a risk to the public. I assume that’s a pretty standard state law around the country, but maybe I’m wrong.”
It’s a reference to the new New York law that just passed. Also, the person who was treating the Auroa shooter is now the subject of a lawsuit from the families of some of the victims for failing to report him to the police.
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It’s a reference to the new New York law that just passed.
Thanks. I was wrong in that the Michigan law is permissive with respect to disclosure where “if there is a compelling need for disclosure based upon a substantial probability of harm to the recipient or other individuals.” Michigan law also requires the mental health professional to hospitalize and report a patient who makes a “threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable third person and the recipient has the apparent intent and ability to carry out the threat in the foreseeable future.” New York’s law both seems to require disclosure and seems to have a lower threshold for the disclosure. To be honest, the New York law is actually easier for providers to deal with than the Michigan law. The reason for that is that HIPAA is arguably more restrictive than the Michigan law and would therefore preempt the Michigan law. So a mental health provider has to balance the two laws. Since it’s required under New York law, the disclosure would be allowed under HIPAA.
Also, the person who was treating the Auroa shooter is now the subject of a lawsuit from the families of some of the victims for failing to report him to the police.
There are cases like that in Michigan, too. It’s been a while but if I recall correctly, in Michigan the duty only extends to patients and not third parties.
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“You have no self-esteem issues if you cannot distinguish between yourself and the President of the United States. You might as well ask why he gets a helicopter to fly on wherever he goes and you don’t. If anything presidents seem to try to minimize the disruption the security apparatus tries to interject. Jimmy Carter sent his daughter to DC public schools and look what happened to her. That’s just taking the man-of-the people stuff too far.”
I don’t understand this, did I write this anywhere?
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Why would a President allow himself to remain in power under those circumstances? Surely they or someone in the chain of succession would remove them, at least temporarily.
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“My reasoning is that a terrorist could kidnap the President’s children and be able to endanger the country through various demands that would likely never be made if my son was kidnapped”
I saw that movie. Harrison Ford kicked their commie asses.
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I don’t understand this, did I write this anywhere?
You were wanting the same security perks as the president. I was just wondering where you drew the line.
“My reasoning is that a terrorist could kidnap the President’s children and be able to endanger the country through various demands that would likely never be made if my son was kidnapped”
I saw that movie. Harrison Ford kicked their commie asses.
Sounds suspiciously like a West Wing story arc as well.
Parody of the NRA ad:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/e0141717e0/nra-stand-and-fight-parody
At a deeper level, there is a dogwhistlish level to the NRA ad which ties into the evergreen story about how much each of Obama’s vacations cost the taxpayer. It mines a level of resentment towards him exercising the privileges (which of course are due to the corresponding responsibilities) of his office. He’s the Leader of the Free World, for crissakes. What is he supposed to do? Fly coach after buying tickets on Expedia? Wait in the carpool lane to pick up his kids? This sort of nitpicking at him, and his kids in particular, is just ugly.
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It used to be that the opposing party would take potshots at the President’s vacationing. Now, it’s racism.
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“This sort of nitpicking at him, and his kids in particular, is just ugly.”
No one is begrudging the President and his family Secret Service protection, but the President himself is dismissive of the proposals for armed security in schools, in obvious contrast to himself. It reminds me of the fight against vouchers for public schools by people who would never send their own kids there in the first place. And as I mentioned before I’d have more sympathy for the argument that the comparison of Obama’s daughters with everyone else was out of line if the President himself hadn’t used a group of children as political props in his own speech on gun control.
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the President himself is dismissive of the proposals for armed security in schools, in obvious contrast to himself.
I’m not sure this is true. From Mike’s link earlier:
Indeed, in the package of gun-control proposals he unveiled on Wednesday, he called on Congress to help schools hire more guards or other school resource officers.
Also from that article, Obama said on Wednesday:
I would not use the word dismissive unless he’s said something differen somewhere else.
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It’s like reading the Daily Kleagle.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/02/AR2005080201703.html
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Because no president has ever used kids as a photo op before.
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my idea is to rethink sequestering kids in suburban campuses. integrate classrooms — not schools — into the larger community. no reason they’re couldn’t be a school and/or classes in my building. a fairfax county school, even. rent the space, stop spending $$ on infrastructure, and pay the teachers more.
the elementary school in my neighborhood is a perfectly good school. that starts classes about 2 hours after we leave the house to get to work. it’s a model based on a parent staying at home. or something. the idea of busing kids to campsus cut off from the larger community just seems so obsolete.
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I am skeptical that the ONLY answer is putting more guns in schools. (emphasis added)
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President himself is dismissive of the proposals for armed security in schools, in obvious contrast to himself.
The only armed security at Sidwell Friends would be the Secret Service when the First Kids are there. From Kessler:
“Ellis Turner, associate head of Sidwell Friends, told us emphatically: ‘Sidwell Friends security officers do not carry guns.'”
Perhaps you do not think POTUS’ children should have Secret Service protection, which they are legally required to have, but that is a different discussion from armed security in schools, which the (Quaker) Sidwell Friends School does not have.
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it’s a model based on a parent staying at home. or something. the idea of busing kids to campsus cut off from the larger community just seems so obsolete.
Schools should be community centers open from 7 to 7 with a core academic day and lots of other activities throughout the day. They should incorporate or become home base to all the myriad extracurricular organizations such as sports and dance and arts which are now scattered hither and yon. I don’t see why they couldn’t be incorporated into office parks and such. Although high schools in particular have very specialized programming needs (science hoods, performing arts auditoriums).
Several schools in Columbia are near shopping centers and retail.office complexes even though they aren’t very well integrated into them. A full service school community center would require about 50% more staff and a lot more land. Don’t see that happening in our cost-cutting voucherized future.
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“You were wanting the same security perks as the president. I was just wondering where you drew the line.”
Could you please point out where I wrote this? My point is that if my community decided that they needed armed parents roaming the school grounds they cannot, due to Federal legislation. I in fact wrote that Obama’s children are at a higher risk. You keep wanting to read into my words your rather cartoonish view of those that disagree with you philosophically.
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they cannot, due to Federal legislation.
Really? My junior high school in NJ had armed city cops in 1956.
When did they change that?
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Here is a history.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun-Free_School_Zones_Act_of_1990
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George, law enforcement is excepted from the Guns Free Zone Act.
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mark:
George, law enforcement is excepted from the Guns Free Zone Act.
But parents are not.
McWing’s original statement, about which you questioned him: “My point is that if my community decided that they needed armed parents roaming the school grounds they cannot, due to Federal legislation.”
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Missed that.
The parents should get the school to hire cops.
However, I don’t really approve of federal laws about school districts unless they are federally impacted. As next to milbases and on Indian reservations, or for PHS stuff like innoculations.
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mark:
The parents should get the school to hire cops.
School budgets are usually pretty tight. BTW, don’t mistake this for an endorsement of armed parents patrolling schools. I just think it should be up to the school to make that decision, not some guy who lives in a big white house with columns in DC (or 51% of national voters, for that matter.)
However, I don’t really approve of federal laws about school districts unless they are federally impacted. As next to milbases and on Indian reservations, or for PHS stuff like innoculations.
As you may have guessed, I agree. I don’t really approve of federal laws about a great many, perhaps even most, things.
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I in fact wrote that Obama’s children are at a higher risk.
Sorry to mischaracterize your argument. Obama’s kids don’t have armed parents wandering the halls of the Quaker-run school. And I really don’t what anybody else’s parents running around the school of my kid playing John McClane either.
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” And I really don’t what anybody else’s parents running around the school of my kid playing John McClane either.”
Would you deny that option to a community where the majority of parents want to do that?
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Would you deny that option to a community where the majority of parents want to do that?
Yes. I would. The legal use of force should be the exclusive franchise of a trained and professional constabulary. If my kid was killed by friendly fire because I acquiesced to allowing a vigilante patrol I would feel more culpable than if he were killed by a random mad gunman. This carry-everywhere trend by 2nd Amendment absolutists is going to end in tragedy eventually. Trust me on this.
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yello:
The legal use of force should be the exclusive franchise of a trained and professional constabulary.
So you would outlaw the right of a person to defend himself? An interesting thought.
Whoops…corked.
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I guess I just don’t understand the need to impose one’s own preferences on a community of others who have differing preferences. Mark’s quote of the day (which seems to have mutated into a quote of the month) seems relevant.
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“This carry-everywhere trend by 2nd Amendment absolutists is going to end in tragedy eventually. Trust me on this.”
Well, there are people who have been killed because they were not armed, so, why is their tradgedy subordinate?
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/02/12/florida-woman-gunned-down-by-stalker-police-say/
“Yes. I would. The legal use of force should be the exclusive franchise of a trained and professional constabulary”
Is there ever an instance where a civilian could engage in the use of force?
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Is there ever an instance where a civilian could engage in the use of force?
Personal self-defense. Isn’t that the current benchmark, Castle/Stand Your Ground Laws notwithstanding?
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“Personal self-defense. Isn’t that the current benchmark, Castle/Stand Your Ground Laws notwithstanding?’
What about in defense of somebody? You’re in your yard, a woman comes running out of her house screaming with a knife-wielding man chasing her. The woman trips and falls but before the man reaches her, presumably to stab her, you shoot the man dead. Should that use of force be legal?
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You’re in your yard, a woman comes running out of her house screaming with a knife-wielding man chasing her. The woman trips and falls but before the man reaches her, presumably to stab her, you shoot the man dead.
I don’t find hypotheticals all that helpful because it’s tough to think out all the contingencies in advance. In your scenario, it would be very unlikely that I would be doing yardwork while carrying a loaded weapon and in a situation to fire at a knife-wielding maniac since I don’t even own a gun. If it were you, I would leave it up to a district attorney or a jury to determine if what you did could be construed as self-defense. I would wonder why someone wanders the neighborhood thinking a knife-wielding maniac might come by. That would strike me as a little paranoid.
How about this one: You just happen to be working as a student volunteer at your kid’s school carrying your legally authorized pistol which you took a forty hour class to get a concealed carry permit for. An armed gunman breaks in to the class with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a 30 round magazine. He shots five kids and grabs one as a hostage. How long does it take you to return fire?
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“How about this one: You just happen to be working as a student volunteer at your kid’s school carrying your legally authorized pistol which you took a forty hour class to get a concealed carry permit for. An armed gunman breaks in to the class with a semi-automatic assault rifle and a 30 round magazine. He shots five kids and grabs one as a hostage. How long does it take you to return fire?”
Unfortunately the slaughter would continue as I would be unarmed due to Federal law. I would have to look the mourning parents in the eye (assuming I survived) and tell them that I was not brave enough to violate Federal law.
Luckily for those in Portland, there is no Federal ban on weapons in malls.
http://www.examiner.com/article/oregon-mall-shooter-may-have-been-stopped-by-armed-citizen
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Yello, don’t forget the armed assailant may be wearing body armor. The movie theater guy in Colorado used tear gas & wore a gas mask. But the Walter Mittys of the world imagine themselves taking him out with the .38 stuffed down their shorts.
What I wonder is, if a guy sees this knife-wielding madman chasing a woman, do they warn him to freeze & give up first, or just start taking shots? I suppose in such fantasies, there’s never quite enough time for niceties, only a split second to pump some lead into the perp before his knife plunges into the victim’s heaving bosom.
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I guess I just don’t understand the stubborn insistence on having one’s own way rather than being open to co-co-co-compromise.
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bsimon:
I guess I just don’t understand the stubborn insistence on having one’s own way rather than being open to co-co-co-compromise.
McWing asked yello “Would you deny that option to a community where the majority of parents want to do that?” yello replied “Yes. I would.”
Is that what you mean by “the stubborn insistence on having one’s own way”? If so, then I think we are saying basically the same thing. If not, then what do you mean?
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“Is that what you mean by “the stubborn insistence on having one’s own way”? If so, then I think we are saying basically the same thing. If not, then what do you mean?”
It seems that both sides were being stubbornly insistent – those insisting on having armed parents roaming schools, and those who oppose the idea. Using trained law enforcement personnel is a more rational (albeit expensive) compromise. Also, I was speaking more broadly, not just about firearms.
Having said that, there’s apparently a group of people who want to start a community called The Citadel – basically an armed city, where citizens are required to own firearms & demonstrate proficiency in their use. I think people ought to be allowed to form such a community, which I imagine might include armed parents patrolling the schools. I certainly wouldn’t live there. And I certainly wouldn’t support armed parents patrolling the school or daycare my children attend.
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bsimon:
It seems that both sides were being stubbornly insistent – those insisting on having armed parents roaming schools, and those who oppose the idea.
I’m not aware of anyone who insists that all schools have armed parents roaming schools. I’m only aware of people who think that a community that wants to have armed parents roaming their schools ought to be allowed to do so. So I disagree that “both sides” are being stubbornly insistent.
Also, I was speaking more broadly, not just about firearms.
Like what?
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BTW…Yellow Jackets were up for most of the first half, but are now crumbling to Duke early in the second half.
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But parents are not.
I think this is a misreading of the statute. 18 USC 922(q) clearly states:
That should mean that parents who are duly licensed by the State in which their children go to school are legally able to possess firearms on school property.
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Mike:
That should mean that parents who are duly licensed by the State in which their children go to school are legally able to possess firearms on school property.
I’m no lawyer, but I agree.
But if that is right, the Gun Free School Zone law seems to be mis-named. It should probably be called the “Purely symbolic but ultimately meaningless gun control law”
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Scott:
I will add that there may be additional state requirements for possessing firearms on school property, which may vary. I think the thrust of GFSA was student possession of firearms at school.
Let’s see what our lawyers say …
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I don’t own a gun, so I know very little about where you can and can’t carry in Michigan so don’t take this as legal advice. My research seems to back up what others here are saying. In Michigan, a parent could open carry in school. They could not enter the school with a concealed weapon. Michigan attempted to pass allow to allow for concealed weapons to be carried in schools, but the Republican governor vetoed the bill. I wonder what he would have done if the bill had not arrived on his desk within a couple of days of the Sandy Hook tragedy.
I don’t know how or if courts in Michigan have addressed the issue, but my reading of the law would allow for armed parents to patrol the halls provided they were employed or contracted to provide security.
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I was speaking more broadly, not just about firearms.
Like what?
fiscal policy
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bsimon:
fiscal policy
Perhaps you could elaborate. Who and what are you referring to?
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Scott:
“Purely symbolic but ultimately meaningless gun control law”
Isn’t that basically what most of our gun control laws are anyways?
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Mike:
Isn’t that basically what most of our gun control laws are anyways?
Some of them seem to have real effects.
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Wow, that’s some special legislatin’! Probably made up of a bunch of people with a stubborn insistence of having their own way.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=news%2Flocal%2Fnew_york&id=8958116
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Yeah, I’m going to be stubborn. If you want to be brandishing a gun in the presence of my kid when I’m not there, I’m going to do my best to keep you away.
My son took up rifle shooting at scout camp. That fall the local gun range NRA chapter offered to teach Rifle Shooting merit badge so I spent eight Saturday mornings of my life standing around in the cold while my son was trained in gun safety and practiced firing various weapons. He was a pretty good marksman too.
I got nothing against your guns. I just don’t want them near my child.
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yello:
Yeah, I’m going to be stubborn. If you want to be brandishing a gun in the presence of my kid when I’m not there, I’m going to do my best to keep you away.
The issue is not what you want for your kids, but what you would impose on other people in relation to theirs.
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Here is an interesting take on the wording of the Second Amendment:
According to the article, the key word in the phrasing is ‘State’, not ‘militia’.
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yello:
Here is a somewhat more complex view of the derivation of the 2nd amendment.
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Thank you for that very scholarly article by one of the NRA’s lead lawyers.
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yello:
Thank you for that very scholarly article…
You are welcome.
…by one of the NRA’s lead lawyers.
Do I detect the faint whiff of an ad hominem?
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This made me chuckle this morning:
http://www.gocomics.com/barneyandclyde/2013/01/18
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BTW, Gun Appreciation Day is tomorrow. I’m sure it’s a pure coincidence the newest addition to our calendar is two days before Obama’s second inauguration. Perhaps it will eclipse April 19th and 20th as days of remembrance for 2nd Amendment advocates.
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yello:
I was amused that you linked to the Weingartens’ strip even before clicking the link …
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“BTW, Gun Appreciation Day is tomorrow. I’m sure it’s a pure coincidence the newest addition to our calendar is two days before Obama’s second inauguration. Perhaps it will eclipse April 19th and 20th as days of remembrance for 2nd Amendment advocates.”
In your opinion, is this another dog whistle?
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Scott:
Some of them seem to have real effects.
Heh. Aren’t you the one that is supposed to be saying “correlation does not mean causation”?
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Mike:
Aren’t you the one that is supposed to be saying “correlation does not mean causation”?
Yes, indeed, you got me. I did take note of that even as I read the article the other day, but figured I’d post it anyway. It would be interesting to see if causation could be established. Not sure how to go about that, though.
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In your opinion, is this another dog whistle?
No, it’s a warning shot.
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“No, it’s a warning shot.”
In your opinion, is it a warning of literal violence or political opposition?
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In your opinion, is it a warning of literal violence or political opposition?
That really depends on how serious these people were.
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The only reason I won’t give an inch on this issue is that I fully believe the end game is an outright ban and confiscation. The people at Brady originally wanted to ban handguns. I don’t trust them.
I also think any restrictions should be fully applicable to law enforcement, who are supposed to be civilian. they’re not military. IF I can’t have an AR, neither can fairfax county.
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Do I detect the faint whiff of an ad hominem?
Is your sense of smell as keen as I keep getting told my hearing is?
I don’t know if Josh Marshall is as reviled around here as Matt Taibbi, but here is his very nuanced opinion as a non-gun owner
I’m not sure I’m quite as extreme as Josh (at least I certainly hope not) but people who insist on exercising their 2nd Amendment rights just for the sake of insisting they can make me very nervous.
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yello:
Is your sense of smell as keen as I keep getting told my hearing is?
Are we playing the answer-a-question-with-a-question game again?
(from Marshall): But even if it was possible that we could be just as safe with everyone armed as no one armed, I’d still want no one armed.
Having no one armed is obviously not a viable choice. It’s a childish, utopian desire. It’s like declaring that you’d rather live in a world in which no nation has an army than one in which every nation has an army, as if that were a reasonable goal.
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“That really depends on how serious these people were.
I assume some were serious if they perceived that the Federal government had turned tyrannical. Wouldn’t you behave the same way if, for example, the former President Bush declared marshal law and cancelled the ’08 election?
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Wouldn’t you behave the same way if, for example, the former President Bush declared marshal law and cancelled the ’08 election?
I’m not paranoid enough to have considered that a likely situation. You do have a penchant for the unlikely hypothetical situation.
Is the government close to becoming tyrannical enough to merit armed insurrection? If so, what would be the tipping point? Suspension of habeas corpus? Gun confiscation? Mandatory universal health coverage?
Are these people justified in threatening armed violence? And is their threat a serious deterrent if the government was determined to continue on that course of action?
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“Having no one armed is obviously not a viable choice.”
sure it is. they just have to kick in enough doors. that whole article is basically a cultural attack. gun owners are weird and scary. so don’t worry when we start arresting them. they’re not like you and me.
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Are we playing the answer-a-question-with-a-question game again?
Are we? Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
Having no one armed is obviously not a viable choice. It’s a childish, utopian desire.
Of course it is. He was contrasting the two extremes and expressing a preference for it over a world where everybody was armed. We should have as few weapons as necessary, not as many as we can.
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yello:
Are we?
There are extensive rules to this game developed over many years of playing this game with my kids. You can’t just repeat the same question back at the questioner. You have to come up with a new question that has at least some relevance to the question asked of you. “Are we?” constitutes repeating a question. You lose. Sorry.
We should have as few weapons as necessary, not as many as we can.
You should have as many as you want. I don’t think it makes sense to talk about what “we” should have.
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gun owners are weird and scary. so don’t worry when we start arresting them. they’re not like you and me.
If that is what you got out of that article, it is little wonder that you fear the slippery slope of total confiscation. If it reassures you, I won’t be the one doing any prying of your cold dead fingers. As I said before, I have no problem with your toys as long you keep them away from my kids.
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OT: yellow: this is down the street from me. new art house theater and retail. butcher and fish shops too.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/home/shopping-destination-the-mosaic-district/2013/01/15/918465a4-5128-11e2-8b49-64675006147f_story.html
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“I’m not paranoid enough to have considered that a likely situation. You do have a penchant for the unlikely hypothetical situation.
Is it your belief that governments remain stable in perpetuity? Perhaps out government has remained remarkably stable because of a heavily armed citizenry? Given that all governments eventually devolve into tyranny, how unlikely is my hypothetical?
“Is the government close to becoming tyrannical enough to merit armed insurrection? If so, what would be the tipping point? “
No, but see above. Also, any sort of tyranny, in the third most populous country in the world, would by necessity rely on the local police force for control, and that police force is the entity most would have to face.
“If so, what would be the tipping point? Suspension of habeas corpus? Gun confiscation?” Dunno, but I’ll know it when I see it. I suspect that a Federal attempt at tyranny is currently being considered so far fetched due to the check of an heavily armed citizenry.
“Mandatory universal health coverage?”
As I said yesterday, this is more illuminating of your cartoonish perception of those that hold opposing political views from you.
“Are these people justified in threatening armed violence? And is their threat a serious deterrent if the government was determined to continue on that course of action?”
They seem to think so, though I suspect the overwhelming majority were being hyperbolic. But I don’t have a cartoonish, two-dimensional opinion of them like you seem to do. And yes, I think a threat by a motivated group of patriots can, does and has had a deterring effect on the Federal government.
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maybe it’s just me, but the headline seems to indicate and “us vs. them” attitude.
troll, scott? am I nuts? (more so than normal)
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nova:
am I nuts?
I think that using the “tribe” language does suggest an us vs them framing, but I confess that the full context of the article did not strike me that way. I thought he was just trying to explain why he doesn’t like guns, which I think is fair enough.
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As I said yesterday, this is more illuminating of your cartoonish perception of those that hold opposing political views from you.
Health care reform is what most of those people in those images were protesting with their threats of armed violence. Their level of hyperbole compared to the issues at stake seemed seriously out of proportion. And I’m the one with a cartoonish view of political opponents?
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You lose. Sorry.
I accept my defeat with grace and humility.
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yello:
I accept my defeat with grace and humility.
You’ll get better with practice. It’s a real skill. It is usually an oral game, which makes it even harder as there are time limits.
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Nova,
While I live in Maryland, I find myself in the Fairfax area fairly often, particularly Eden Center. I may have to track down that place if my GPS can find it.
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Route 29 (lee highway) and Gallows road. look for the Target. can’t miss it. apparently GPS sends you the wrong way.
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OT a bit. Where is Brent? I need my MR fix ….
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Mike:
Poor man’s Morning Report:
Light day for numbers. Only thing out today is University of Michigan consumer confidence….last was at 72.9 and was expected to come at 75. Actually came in at a relatively weak 71.3, so bond market has rallied slightly. 10yr yield down to 1.85 from 1.87 (even higher in the afternoon) yesterday.
S&P is basically unchanged, down only 2 points. Libor also unchanged. Very quiet credit markets at moment.
I’ve got nothing on the housing market. Biggest talking point among my contacts in the market: Manti T’eo. Everyone seems to be longing for the 3-day weekend, which perhaps Brent has already started.
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Speaking of T’eo…
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I thought he was just trying to explain why he doesn’t like guns, which I think is fair enough.
I am in 100% agreement with ScottC. For once.
It is usually an oral game, which makes it even harder as there are time limits.
Our game was the Why Game. Each explanation from me was followed by “Why?” I lost when I said “Just because.” I won if the explanation was perfectly satisfactory. I rarely won.
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I’ll re-read it.
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“Health care reform is what most of those people in those images were protesting with their threats of armed violence. Their level of hyperbole compared to the issues at stake seemed seriously out of proportion. And I’m the one with a cartoonish view of political opponents?”
As I wrote earlier, the vast majority of those were being hyperbolic. I attended (and helped organize) a number of Tea Party rallies and can attest to that fact. Again, if your view is that if more than a tiny few were serious than I think you indeed have a very warped view of those whom you politically oppose. I’ll add to that your exceedingly bizarre “dog whistle” reference yesterday as more evidence of a world view of you, the good and righteous, versus hordes of drooling, armed Klan members. If that’s what you need to do to “otherize” your political opponents to smooth the way for your favored political outcomes, I understand but don’t agree. I’ll assume good faith disagreement from my political opponents.
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I’ll assume good faith disagreement from my political opponents.
I usually do as well. And a bit of extreme rhetoric is to be expected at rallies, but there were a (very) few embarrassing folk who were showing up at Tea Party events making the group look like a bunch of ignorant racists. I can provide other examples if you need me to. If a political organization wants to be taken seriously, it needs to act serious.
As for the NRA ad, it was so beyond the pale that I really have no idea what it’s real message or intention was. That sort of “we know where your kids go to school” language is just frightening. There was subtext there that I couldn’t even fathom. And not all dogwhistles are racist. As I said, there just seems to be an underlying resentment of Obama having the privileges all previous presidents have been afforded. Read into that what you will.
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yello:
As I said, there just seems to be an underlying resentment of Obama having the privileges all previous presidents have been afforded.
It seems to me that there is a knee-jerk need to attribute to racism criticisms of Obama that all previous presidents have had to endure.
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It seems to me that there is a knee-jerk need to attribute to racism criticisms of Obama that all previous presidents have had to endure.
I largely agree with this, but I think both sides look for too much meaning in criticisms when aimed at their guy. I will say that I don’t recall other President being considered elite for complying with Federal laws vis a vis armed guards for their children. However, I think the NRA’s ad had nothing to do with race, for what I would think are obvious reasons.
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As I wrote earlier, the vast majority of those were being hyperbolic.
Obviously, the first problem with the above is that it is anecdotal. Another problem is that I find it hard to believe people would threaten armed revolution as a rhetorical flourish. I don’t see why yello taking threats of armed insurrection at face value reveals a cartoonish view of opponents. I also think that your casual dismissal of the threats as hyperbole undermines your argument elsewhere the the government is held in check by the threat of an armed citizenry. If this armed citezenry employes such threats so casually and as mere hyperbole, why should the government feel threatened by them?
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Speaking of T’eo…
We know that Brent Musburger had done some intensive investigation of the background of the ‘Bama QB’s girlfriend. No doubt she is real, only if they are real.
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“. I can provide other examples if you need me to. If a political organization wants to be taken seriously, it needs to act serious.”
What does “be[ing] taken seriously” mean in this context. These rallies are being covered by a media made up of people whose perceive political opposition to Obama as racism. It is what it is, the media is incapable of non-biased coverage. We focused ( successfully) on electing like minded politicians and using the threat of primaries as a way to influence those already serving.
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“Obviously, the first problem with the above is that it is anecdotal. Another problem is that I find it hard to believe people would threaten armed revolution as a rhetorical flourish. I don’t see why yello taking threats of armed insurrection at face value reveals a cartoonish view of opponents.”
Does the phrase “No Justice, No Peace” also fill you with fear? Doesn’t that threaten violence?
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Does the phrase “No Justice, No Peace” also fill you with fear?
I must have missed where I indicated I was filled with fear. Maybe you forgot to bold that part.
To answer your question, no. It would depend somewhat on whether or not the people were armed. “No peace” could also just mean continued protests, at least in my mind.
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I’ve always thought ‘No Justice, No Peace’ to be more of a whiney lament than a call to violence.
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I’ve always thought ‘No Justice, No Peace’ to be more of a whiney lament than a call to violence.
Me too. I picture people protesting someone on death row rather than people carrying guns, dressed in a revolutionary war uniform.
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ashot:
I picture people protesting someone on death row rather than people carrying guns, dressed in a revolutionary war uniform.
I picture Maxine Waters egging on LA rioters.
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Maxine Waters terrifies you?
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yello:
Maxine Waters terrifies you?
Did I say that? (Here’s another chance for you.)
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I picture Maxine Waters egging on LA rioters.
Well, I think that helps to explain where Troll was coming from. Thanks.
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If you can’t beat them, change the rules.
I need to think more about how I feel with respect to such a proposal on its merits, but it sure makes Republicans look desperate.
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ashot:
I very much disapprove of this idea, but it is hardly a new, Republican idea. I remember liberals talking about the same thing after the 2000 election.
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And I’m sure it made liberals look desperate, too.
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Scott:
Thanks for the taste. INTC and COF down big, GE and MS up. And SNE too.
Do you have a lot of Domers in your contacts? Here’s more fodder:
http://teoing.tumblr.com/
http://beermugsports.com/beermug/2013/1/17/the-funniest-manti-teo-memes-on-the-internet.html
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Mike:
Do you have a lot of Domers in your contacts?
I know quite a few. Both my brother and my cousin are Domers. And my daughter is waiting to hear if she will become one.
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My wife loved it there. good luck to your daughter, scott.
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Nova:
Thanks. She didn’t really have a strong preference for anywhere until we visited South Bend, and she immediately felt like it was the place for her. Hopefully she gets in, but if not, she’s got some reasonable back-up options. She’s already been accepted into Boston College.
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Ash,
Fear was perhaps overstated. But obviously to you it made you raise an eyebrow As these people have been effectively otherized in your mind. I find the phrase “No Justice, No Peace” as mere hyperbolic noise, I have no fear that the staters of such phrases are going to engage in armed insurrection (yet), the same as I afford those exceedingly tiny percentage of Tea Partyer’s that engage in the same level of discourse.
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“Maxine Waters terrifies you?”
Does a 70 year old in revolutionary era garb frighten you?
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Does a 70 year old in revolutionary era garb frighten you?
Well played, Troll. Although, is he/she carrying a loaded gun?
I’ve got an unlikely hypothetical for our resident King of hypotheticals. What if, in the wake of Sandy Hook, a school were to hire a retired sheriff’s department firearms instructer to be their armed security guard? What if this highly trained, former instructor left his gun unattended in the bathroom.
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ashot:
What if this highly trained, former instructor left his [unloaded] gun unattended in the bathroom [for a few moments].
What exactly is the question?
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“I’ve got an unlikely hypothetical for our resident King of hypotheticals. What if, in the wake of Sandy Hook, a school were to hire a retired sheriff’s department firearms instructer to be their armed security guard? What if this highly trained, former instructor left his gun unattended in the bathroom.”
I guarantee that it has happened already and will happen again. I’d also bet that a child was injured or killed because of it. I’ll also say that at some point in the future, a well trained law enforcement officer will go on a shooting spree in a school.
Does that mean that having one there will not, at some point, save lives? The security officer that stopped, or slowed down Klebold and Harris certainly did.
http://m.nydailynews.com/1.1225796
I disagree with his supporting an assault weapons ban however.
What do we do now with Obama’s idiotic “if it saves one child’s life” horseshit?
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How are they proposing to define “assault weapons” this time?
I’m certainly OK with continuing to make scarce grenade and missile launchers and fully automatic rifles. Wasn’t there an attempt to determine which semi-autos could easily be converted to full automatic previously? And are automatic sidearms included?
We here all know that despite the high profile mass killer crimes the overwhelming stat in the gun death rate is from handguns, and of those, cheap bad ones are the weapons of choice. Which is why the gun laws won’t affect the gun death rate for a generation. It will take some time for the Saturday night specials that are out there to all self destruct. But they will.
Decriminalize drugs and do away with paper money; then street crime and the gun death rate will plummet.
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“What do we do now with Obama’s idiotic “if it saves one child’s life” horseshit?”
Same thing we do with the 2nd amendment absolutists’ horseshit.
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