Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojktAdmiral Ackbar Cereal: Your taste buds can’t repel flavor of this magnitude!
QB: You can do real dashes by dropping into HTML and typing — where you want the m-dash to appear. See below.
I also occasionally do music. If you can’t come up with something better to do, then you have to listen to it. Tonight’s selection: I Love You. Although I did it in 2008, the vocal samples are from 1990 or before, and it has a background (it’s like a prequel to I Hate You, a similar-ish song I did at least 3 versions of back in the late 1980s). While I included the link to I Hate You, I might mention that it’s at least 3 minutes too long, and that, perhaps, is charitable.
For the fellas: remembering Bettie Page.
Do you like Daryll Hall and John Oates? Well, I can’t stop listening to this. The Bird and the Bee did a whole album of covers of Hall & Oates. Brilliant! I’m listening on Spotify, rather than YouTube, but . . . worth listening to, if you like your Hall and Oates.
Some people are cynical about the future of Social Security because of the Tuskegee Syphillis Experiment. Well, that’s one reason to be, I guess. — KW
— — Michigoose (OK, Kevin, could you check the HTML and tell me what I did wrong there?)(Nope, still having the same problem. May be the different browsers issue [although shouldn’t HTML code be HTML code no matter what?][and where your mdash is inserted I don’t see the code. Hmmmmmmmmm])
[It apparently converts the code, so I guess you can just copy and paste an M-Dash if you want to, or type one . . . alt 0151 on the PC, option-shift dash on the Mac. Typing format for HTML entities includes the semi-colon: “—” or “–” or “©” (that’s a © symbol) and so on . . . Here’s a list! —KW]
Okie, a link to your video (how it would be formatted when writing it in a comment):
<a href=”http://youtu.be/W86jlvrG54o”>This is a tear-jerking video, why am I trying to make people cry before work, I should be ashamed of myself</a>
Like that. Start with a <a href=”link”>Put something in the middle, then end it with a </a> . . .
Filed under: FAQ, social security | Tagged: admiral ackbar |
All Things in Moderation 
michi, very nice job on FAQ's. For some reason I wasn't expecting a comment box at the end of the page. It's a great idea though as long as someone checks it occasionally.BTW everyone, I thought we had some great posts up the last couple of days, good work and keep writing.
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Thanks, lms. It was there when I opened the tab, but now that I've edited the page to insert the FAQs, I'll bet that there's a way to remove it. Although it strikes me that it's a handy place to continue to collect questions and answer them/decide whether or not to add them to the list.Kevin, I'm listening to "I Love You" and it's interesting. Quite trippy–I'm enjoying it, thanks!
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KW–the Robot Chicken won't play for me 😦
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Yeah michi, I say we leave it for now at least. We just need to remember to check it occasionally.
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Michigoose–sorry! Apparently your taste buds can repel flavor of that magnitude.
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BTW, make sure you drop into HTML. Compose mode converts the ampersand to it's special character, so unless it's in HTML mode when you're authoring it, it won't work.
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Gonna go try and edit that mdash while it's slow here right now. I know that I was in HTML mode, but I may have put an extra character in by accident or something.BTW, when I was inserting and editing the FAQ today I found the "abc" strikethrough button that you were talking about, and it's there for editing pages but not for editing posts for me. Interesting that different browsers seem to have different capabilities in Blogger.
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And, goodness! Bettie Page was quite the hottie (before there was such a term)!!
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At the plumline over the past few weeks some of us were debating whether Republicans were waging a war on birth control. I know this is a touchy subject for some of us but it just seems rather tough to deny they're doing it. It may be around about way to end abortion services but they're attempting to take everything down with it.The War on Birth ControlThe goal is to get government money out of the abortion process and if contraceptive services have to suffer a bit of collateral damage in the process, so be it. When The Texas Tribune asked state Rep. Wayne Christian (R-Nacogdoches), a supporter of the family planning cuts, if this was a war on birth control, he said “yes.”“Well of course this is a war on birth control and abortions and everything, that’s what family planning is supposed to be about,” Christian said.Family planning clinics are routinely referred to by many Texas Republican legislators as “abortion clinics” even though none of the 71 family planning clinics in the state that receive government funding provide abortions. Texas and federal law prohibits that, but most women’s health clinics will refer women or teens who want an abortion to a provider.“They’re sitting here, referring women out to receive abortions,” Christian said in an interview with NPR. “Those are the clinics, including Planned Parenthood, we were targeting.”
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lms, I followed some of that discussion on PL. I'm not convinced Rs are targeting birth control per se, but I do believe you are correct that it is considered acceptable collateral damage while going after abortion as the real target.
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&mdash may require a semicolon — test.
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No emdashes in comments, or other HTML entities. Sad but true. I see you got an emdash. Yay!
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Hi okie, yes that's what I think also. We're seeing that in states with more Republican legislatures and governors. In their zeal to inhibit access to abortions they're also inhibiting access to the most important part of the family planning services their states have, especially for the poor, birth control services to prevent pregnancy. It's similar to abstinence only education, oh wait, we have a really high rate of teen pregnancy, why? I think it's actually an interesting dynamic.
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Wow Kevin, multi-talented.Great day for reading the posts and comments (well, they all are, some are more great than others though.) I want to contribute more but sometimes work gets in the way. Lms, I won't argue that the intent of many on the right is to outlaw abortion ended under any/virtually all circumstances, and introduce various drives to restrict abortion, such as parental notification or banning late term abortions, as a way to move incrementally to their goal. There is a reason they are doing that though, and that is that most polls show a majority of Americans favor those kind of restrictions. I'm pro-choice and am probably deeply hypocritical about it. I do not consider a fetus a life equal to a born person, but as the fetus gestates and gets closer to term, it becomes more and more difficult for me to accept the principle of an unrestricted abortion. As I wrote, I think most Americans would want to keep abortion legal, up to a point. There is a strong desire for some restrictions on term, age, reason, etc.Where I think the danger lies for those who want to outlaw abortion, is a situation in which states can enact various restrictions that their population sees fit (excluding outright banning of it.) I think the pro-life groups would suffer if the, for lack of a better word, irritant of unrestricted abortion were removed. They need the "anything goes" frustration of the American people to stay relevant. If the overwhelming majority become satisfied with the state of abortion (i.e. it has some restrictions localities enact) it then completely disapears as an issue. Just my opinion on the subject.
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Could someone tell me again why we need an emdash?
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lms, which is precisely why "Well of course this is a war on birth control and abortions and everything, that’s what family planning is supposed to be about,” Christian said" makes no sense at all unless I am misunderstanding. Italics mine.
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lms, we probably do not "need" an emdash. LOL.Mr. Troll, that is a very interesting viewpoint and, surprisingly to me, one that I probably mostly agree with (except the part about pro-life groups suffering if there were some agreement, if you are attributing that as a motivation to keep the controversy open). I share your "hypocritical" attitude about some restrictions being appropriate. But jeebus, this country has been fighting about abortion for 40+ years. Can't we figure out some middle ground and then let it go?
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McWing, I actually agree with you and as someone who considers herself to be pro-choice but also pro-life, which is considered the height of hypocrisy, I completely understand your point. Honestly, I don't know anyone personally who believes in unrestricted abortions. It's a very personal and confounding issue for many of us and I really just don't understand the confusion between the easy and inexpensive availability of birth control as the sacrifice to the pro-life movement. I think there are many on the left who have pulled back from the abortion wars of the 60's and 70's who really just want a rather modest access to abortion early in the pregnancy and possibly in the rare case of health of the mother. Even in rape or incest cases, first trimester should be doable. It's not as if it comes as a surprise when a girl or woman is 6 months along that they were raped.I think the problem liberals have is that they may be willing to negotiate but the battle lines have been drawn so to speak and it's either surrender or fight. Of course this is the case of many ideological disagreements isn't it?
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Abortion: I'm pro-lifey-choice-ish. It's a life, but a nascent one. Health of the mother? Long married, it'd be a tough decision. Wouldn't want to risk the health of my wife. But, having been through a miscarriage, that's no fun, either. Never do it myself, I guess, not sanguine about making that an absolute law. I'm 110% pro birth-control, and the more and earlier the better. Families should be on purpose.Emdashes — because they are awesome™.Troll–also a writer of incomplete novels *and* a former art photographer and graphic artist. Now I do databases. Life's funny like that!
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HTML entities don't work in comments, but special characters should . . . option-shift-dash on the Mac, Alt 0151 on the PC. Here's a chart of keyboard shortcuts and special characters on the PC, it's a PDF, special chars are at the end.
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Another link toAdmiral Ackbar Cereal. Love Robot Chicken.
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"I'm 110% pro birth-control, and the more and earlier the better. Families should be on purpose." AMEN!
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okieI saw georgia over there and believe me I thought about maneuvering my way in, but #1 I'd already gone out on a bit of a limb this morning to get NoVA to email me, which he's done, and #2 I wasn't comfortable with some of the people around letting me get away with it. Brigade already made a comment tonight about kevin, scott, qb and I leaving for a more congenial blog or something. I figured I better just keep my mouth shut. I'm dropping the stray comment in now and then to praise Greg's work or leave a link for someone I think they may be interested in. Maybe that way they won't forget me, lol. NoVA wants in btw, but hasn't responded to the invite yet. I'll email him tomorrow to make sure he got it, I don't like to appear too anxious.
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Don't miss BB's excellent psot, right before this one. The man makes me want some risotto right now!
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And I left Plumline because the comments don't work for me most of the time, at all. I contacted their tech support and was ignored, but I'm probably the only guy with this problem, so I can't say that I blame them.
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omg, kevin, darn you. I completely missed the post about rice! Now I'll be compelled to stay up at least long enough to read that.
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Admiral Akbar Cereal! Colorful marshmallows!Where do you get these things, Kevin?!?I'll add the HTML code sheet as a link within the FAQs. . . tomorrow. Long day here and longer tomorrow, but should start slowing down a bit this weekend once the move is done and a couple of work projects that magically appeared on my plate today get finished.Off to read about rice and then to bed. Thanks much for the wonderful reading today, folks, even if I didn't get to contribute much to the conversation!
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Kevin, did you get the Hall & Oates cover link fromAOSHQ? I think Ace put it up a couple of days ago. Or did you give it to him? One of my proudest Internet moments was getting a hat tip from Ace about a quote of John Lydon's.
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Searching for Hall and Oates covers on Spotify. Did not tip Ace ( would never have occurred to me), but I love it. Between this and work and life, I haven't had time to read Ace. Her voice is just delicious, though. Isn't it?What was the quote?
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Yes, it made me actually enjoy Hall & Oates. I think he linked to a YouTube video and asked, "Is this something?"It could've been on the Overnight Thread a day or two back though. Past about 6 hours, my memory gets fuzzy.Unless I perceive that I've been slighted. I carry those memories, crystal clear memories, for life.
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McWing:They need the "anything goes" frustration of the American people to stay relevant. If the overwhelming majority become satisfied with the state of abortion (i.e. it has some restrictions localities enact) it then completely disapears as an issue. Precisely why moderately pro-choice people should all advocate for the reversal of Roe. If the issue was returned to the political process, where it properly belongs, most states would almost certainly establish moderate restrictions on abortions, but it would remain largely available for the period in which most occur anyway. And, as you say, the issue would lose its heightened passion.The only thing that keeps abortion a perennial and passionate political issue in this country is the fact that it has been removed from the political process by judicial fiat.
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Let go of your hurt, Troll, and come in to the light. We here on this board love you unconditionally, forever and always. Truly, you knucklehead! :-)I know I said I was out, but I read F'Blade's rice post and then wandered over to the PL to see what they were saying about us and saw your comment to beach, Kevin. I don't think he's STRF (his grammar is generally too good, for one thing), but man he sure can burn a thread up like STRF could! He's calmed down remarkably in just four days, and his output is still over the top.
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If the issue was returned to the political process, where it properly belongsNo! No, no, NO! This is most emphatically NOT a political process issue, Scott. The worst thing that ever happened to the abortion issue was that it became a political issue, precisely at a time when women's rights in a number of areas were being contested. I'm not going to get into it this late at night. But abortion is a medical issue, it is a moral issue, it is a deeply, deeply personal issue, but it is NOT rightly a political issue.
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If it's STRF, it's his best. He used to do a boring liberal, normally called DrainYou, but it was the same grammar.
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Mich:Sorry, but wishing that it wasn't a political issue doesn't make it so. There is great disagreement about abortion in the nation. Great and passionate disagreement. Such issues are precisely the types of issues that need to be resolved via a political process in which a negotiated compromise, where all sides have a say and a stake, is reached. When one side is granted unilateral victory by nothing more than 5 lawyers dressed in robes, it merely foments divisiveness and resentment. If abortion is ever to cease being a such a hugely divisive issue, Roe must go.
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Scott, I have mixed feelings about that. On the one hand abortion was legal in quite a few states and was trending towards legalization in others, so it could be argued that society in general was liberalizing in regards to abortion.On the other hand, I think there are going to be women in every state who will get an abortion regardless of it's legality in their state. That's going to put lives at risk, so rather than completely outlaw it if the state decides so, I would favor relatively unrestricted legality (parental notification would be ok for minors, IMO) during the first trimester and then let states enact restrictions as there citizens see fit after that. Yeah, it's hypocritical on my part, but I think it conforms to a pretty large section of the population's position on the matter and would do the most to politically defuse and settle the issue. If I'm not restricted, only China has less legal restrictions on abortion than the U.S. We're really out there compared to the rest of the world.
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BTW, that first "restricted" should be "mistaken."
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McWing:That's going to put lives at riskFrom the point of view of many abortion opponents, abortion itself puts lives at risk. I don't necessarily disagree with your preference, but I see no reason why your preference should trump a voting majority who might think differently.
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This is the feel good link of the night. Really, it's worth it.
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I don't see the possibility pro-choice people of any political persuasion giving up Roe without a fight. You see, we don't trust the politicians at the state or national level to protect the rights of women on this. Enough restrictions have already crept into so many states that it is virtually impossible already to get a safe abortion in a few of them. This is the fear many of us have, as McWing mentioned above, going back to the deadly days of illegal abortions in unsafe conditions. Remember that underground clinic that was shut down earlier this year? That's the future we're afraid of.
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Thanks McWing, I think I'll say good night on that. I love the work Operation Smile does. What a sweet and soon to be happy little girl.
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Scott, You're right on both counts. I'm just thinking of what would more or less defuse the situation, if I was pro-choice activist. My sister has spent a lot of time in Russia, both pre and post the fall of the Iron Curtain, and it was her observation (she's pro-choice, by the way) that is was the primary means of birth control. That's something that really hasn't been established here, It's still is considered a pretty significant event. And the fact that it is still riven with such passion, on both sides, says to me that we've now gone beyond politics.I guess that's got nothing to do with anything, and I agree with overturning Roe, but only in the sense that abortion, say after the first trimester, should be allowed to be regulated as states see fit, versus overturning it and letting each state decide it's ultimate legality.Ultimately, for me, it's a complicated issue and one that is worthy of being defused carefully.
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I'm off to bed as well.
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Insert Peyp's sign off for me as well.
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http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2011/09/perry-in-texas.html#more
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Re: AbortionI have been in the position where I had to choose.THAT is the real core here, though. You hear Choice, and the first thought in your head is Abortion.That is wrong. You had it right the first time: CHOICE.Just because one of those choices is abortion doesn't mean that it will always be. I gave my son up for adoption, and although I technically had a choice, I didn't have $500 or to pay for it, and as I was in a Salvation Army Shelter at the time, I wasn't likely to get it.So, I chose adoption.I am incensed with the right on this topic. I go into a blind red rage. NO, I don't trust any stinking politician on this matter!!The right, those that pickett, have NO IDEA what it is like to have to make that choice. OH HOW I HATE THEM!I can see this escalating rapidly, I have to stop, seriously, or I will very swiftly become incoherent.
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The Operation Smile video about made me cry. "Insert Peyp's sign off for me as well."Okay . . . "So home and at the office all the afternoon, busy till nine at night, and so to my lodging and to bed."
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Another “feel good” video. Warning, this is a sappy tearjerker. It brings home the lyrics to the song "Imagine." Or am I the only one who had not seen it until recently?“Two little Iraqi boys are born with birth defects in the midst of the chaos of war and thrown away in a shoe box. They are found, somehow, and an Australian woman goes to Iraq, adopts them, and brings them home. “Now, about 17ish years later, the older boy Emmanuel lives his dream by singing “Imagine” on the X-Factor audition. Talk about staring unbelievable adversity in the face and climbing above it!!!”<a href:"http://youtu.be/W86jlvrG54o"</a"
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Okay, now that I have calmed somewhat…In Virginia, the right has done a run-around. Clinics must now meet the same specifications as a hospital. For those already established, that means they will have to close. Technically, in the state of Virgina, abortion is legal. In reality, good luck with that. Ain't gonna happen.
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"The right, those that pickett, have NO IDEA what it is like to have to make that choice. OH HOW I HATE THEM!"Some of them do. Some (not a large percentage, I'm sure, but at least a few) of the picketers have had abortions. I'm not a fan of the folks who harass pregnant women outside of abortion clinics, organized (usually) by minor league Fred Phelps types, but it's not true that none of them ever had no idea what it's like to make that choice, as there are pretty emphatic pro-lifers that have either had abortions or given up a child for adoption. I understand why you'd hate them: they choose to make their argument in a way not designed to persuade, but to offend, and to provide them a cathartic release while doing nothing to advance their ostensible agenda, which would be making it so very few abortions are ever necessary. "I am incensed with the right on this topic."That's fine, but you understand that 99.9% of the right don't picket abortion clinics, and certainly a significant number, but hardly all, are sympathetic with them. Although, there's no doubt: Republican politicians, especially these days, are not the pro-choicer's friend.
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"In Virginia, the right has done a run-around. Clinics must now meet the same specifications as a hospital."What does that mean? On the surface, that sounds completely positive. Of course, abortion clinics, which perform medical procedures, should be up to the standards of a normal hospital. Under the surface, no doubt, there's something else going on . . .But the vehemently pro-life folks make no secret of attempting every tactic to prevent access to abortion (except comprehensive sex ed–not judging, understand why folks don't want the schools teaching their kids about condoms, but I don't think it's quite the same as teaching them to worship Satan).
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taroya, I certainly understand your sentiments on this. But I generally agree with kevin on this. I have one acquaintance who is rabid anti-abortion — precisely because she (self-admittedly) despises herself for having had an abortion earlier in life. I guess it is how she expresses her regret.I could not get my tearjerker video link right. If you want to copy and paste, it's worth the watch. At least I think so because everything I do at my job is focused on working with those with disabilities.http://youtu.be/W86jlvrG54oHave a good day, all.
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okiegirl: now, that's a back story. BTW, it's Here's a clickable link.
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okie, it's "<"a href="link">Here is my link"<"/a>", without the quotes, except around the actual URL. That's hard to follow, I'll add a note to the actual post. So, read the bottom of this post.
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The changes that will have to be made to clinics don't actually address what those clinics do.The hallways have to be widened, to accomodate hospital beds is the main physical change that I remember; other changes are that official can come inspect patient medical records without notice, and without a warrant, and interview patients on the premises.Clinics mostly administer bc, not abortions. That is not anything like as common as others want to believe. Late-term must be done in a hospital (that is correct and good). Early ones you can walk away from in an hour. When those people picket, they think that they are protesting abortion. They are not.They are protesting the right of a woman to make a decision.If they have had to do it, and they feel regret now, they need to find Shrink. They should not be on a picket line.As much as I despise them (thank you for you efforts to talk me down, won't happen, but thank you anyway), I will not picket them, or stalk, or anything else.So, they should stay home, and exercise their right to choose when it is their turn, and not attempt to deny that right to others that have nothing to do with them or their families.
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I see that in my brief absence there was discussion of important topics like abortion and the em dash. I will have to catch up later, but, to address the latter first:Why do we need an em dash? Because we are sticklers for proper English usage, grammar, and punctuation, albeit our hasty typing here might not always show it! My partners and associates mock me because I have a book called Typography for Lawyers that I love. And the em dash is a must.But I have to reread all the tips about html etc. I am still largely clueless. Shouldn't there be an em dash somewhere on the keyboard as an alt- or control- stroke?
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Fortunately, and only because of luck, I never faced that decision. My best friend in high school did though. And it was in 1968, pre legal. She and her mother didn't tell her father and her mother took her to Mexico while dad was out of town on business. And due to complications from RH factor she nearly died before the day was over and faced a lot of legal trouble for it as well.And no, we don't trust politicians at the state or national level to figure out a way through this. And for evidence all you have to do is look at the restrictions being placed on legal family planning services at the state level.
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Maybe tonight I'll bring up Greece again, it's not as controversial. Of course, no one's very interested either, lol.I'm dealing with some work related computer problems this morning so will probably be in and out today, but mostly out.Have a good one all.
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You bet I'll back you up, Michi. And twice on Sunday.
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Also, I see there are several drafts in the file, could one of you put something up soon if it's ready. Or we could just put up an open thread.And, I emailed NoVA again as I sent the first invite to an incorrectly edited, by me, email address. He has checked us out though now that we're public and said it looked interesting.
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Thanks, T.
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Well, a few thoughts on the abortion discussion, picking out a few points for response.In general, I think the argument that no one else can understand or legitimately judge the situation is flawed and lacking in a defensible philosophical foundation. We make conclusions about moral and social question that we aren't in all the time. Legislators, judges, juries, and citizens do this as a matter of course. Abortion is complex but not unique in this respect. I believe it was Larry Tribe who, among others, has tried to argue that abortion is sui generis and therefore not subject to standard norms of ethical, legal, and political judgment (that's something of an interpretation of the position), but this is at bottom an exercise in bootstrapping or mere a priori assertion."I understand why you'd hate them: they choose to make their argument in a way not designed to persuade, but to offend, and to provide them a cathartic release while doing nothing to advance their ostensible agenda, which would be making it so very few abortions are ever necessary."I don't understand this at all, Kevin. It seems to me based entirely on an assumption that the subject matter is not worthy of protest. Would you say the same thing of civil rights protesters, that their methods were calculated for offense and cathartic release (thus fundamentally narcisstic?) rather than effectiveness?The Supreme Court's ultra vires Roe decision and it's authoritarian, breathtakingly arrogant refusal in Casey to undo it, has largely made this the inflammatory issue it is. The Casey decision essentially says: we probably made a huge mistake in Roe, but because of the very fact that the people have refused to accept it, and have continued to speak against it and resist it, we are going to reaffirm it. We will show them that we are their rulers, and we demand that they cease resistance and accept the legitimacy or our grave constitutional error.That's what is says. It's no wonder that it did not work, and it never will work. They invented this "privacy" right out of whole cloth, and it is contrary to our constitutional order. Five Justices can't make it a political nonissue and remove it from public debate by fiat. Intelligent people should have realized this, but their arrogance exceeded their intelligence.
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I would add: the reasoning behind that decision in Casey was that if the Court corrected its error in Roe, it might undermine the Court's authority. I.e., the Court exalted its own error over the Constitution because it's own institutional authority is more important than the Constitution it is charged with enforcing.I am probably as outraged at this and at the fact that people are willing to defend it as some people are at abortion protesters. This was an outright assault on our constitutional order, on the very foundations of our republic.
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NoVA is here now, comment in San Francisco post.
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qb, I think I understand your legal frustration, but can't legitimately address it. The legal implications are beyond my knowledge base. I'm wondering re public opinion, what's changed since 2004 though?Stockman cited an American Viewpoint survey completed last week that asked 1,006 adults nationwide about their opinions on a woman's right to choose. In addition to the 73% of Republicans who say that the choice should remain with the woman, 61% of GOP respondents said that while they themselves might not choose abortion, they would not take that right away from other women. These findings demonstrate an upward trend over previous American Viewpoint surveys and CBS/New York Times polling over the last several years.I'm in and out today with tech issues so will check back.
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There was no error made in Roe vs Wade.The only mistake is in thinking that a man can tell me I will have his kid whether I like it or not.Question: Why is always a woman's fault and responsibility? Man can't choose to keep his pecker zipped?Again, this debate has devolved into the morality of abortion, when that ISN'T what the core is about: It is about a woman's right to make a decision.
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It was a mistake. (Did we settle that now?)I didn't see anyone say it is always a woman's fault. That doesn't seem relevant, really, although if you want to bring that issue into it, I'd point out that the pro-choice position in fact excludes the man from consideration. If he doesn't have a say, we are implicitly saying that it isn't his responsibility.I don't think assertions that the issue is about a right and not morality are meaningful arguments. They might be statements of one's conclusion or position but are devoid of persuasive content.
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"It is about a woman's right to make a decision."As with many things, the argument stops and starts there for some, but not for others. I think the difficulty is that, to at least some people, abortion (especially late term abortion), is akin to infanticide. This is a view I understand, having seen my infant and then toddler children manifest behaviors that I saw on their ultrasounds when they were the size of my thumb. It's difficult to see the level of differentiation that others see. Even an early term fetus, though unable to survive outside the womb, begins to strike me as a tiny, little, hyper-dependent baby.Mother's don't have the choice to drown their infant children in the tub, and most people who are pro-life, or pro-lifety-choice-ish, like myself, tend to see abortion is being only a few shades away from infanticide–something that, with intention and forethought, puts an end to what otherwise be a discrete, post-partum human life. You (or others) may not agree with that perspective, or consider it an inappropriate context, but I have a hard time regarding the viewpoint as completely irrelevant, or invalid. Or thinking that the people who believe abortion is the taking of a human life are completely crazy. Some of them, yes."Why is always a woman's fault and responsibility? Man can't choose to keep his pecker zipped?"I'm not sure it's necessarily all about fault and responsibility, but, yes, obviously, men can both show adult responsibility, and also do a little bit better about being prepared with the birth control. However, if we do (and we should) hold the man responsible, should the man (if present), by correlation, have some say in the fate of his potential offspring? This is an inflammatory issue, I'm really not trying to stake out a side, just touch on how the pro-life folks aren't "about" depriving women of choice, anymore than pro-choice are "about" trying to "kill babies". But if anything I said is too inflammatory, sorry! I will retract or attempt to explain differently, upon request.
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I'm trying to keep in mind that discussions about abortion usually become acrimonious, due to the passions often involved. Things can be taken the wrong way, other things are seen as throwing down a gauntlet, and then it gets difficult to have any further discussion. Perhaps we should have a safe word, like: "marimba". Once we say "marimba!", it's time to dial it back. Or is that a non-functional idea?
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We have settled that we will disagree on this matter.That this issue is about a right and not morality are absolutely meaningful; it draws a clear contrast between the emotion and the legality of the matter.When those picketters are out there, they aren't saying anything about the right to make a decision. They are solely talking about how abortion is morally wrong. You can't read those signs, and hear those chants?They do not see that what they are really saying is that a woman doesn't have the right to make a decision because she is morally incapable of it. All of these end-runs around the law in the various states are also saying that the medical profession isn't capable of making a decision here either.I do see that you point out that the pro-choice position indicates that the man is excluded from consideration; that is true. So, yes, the specific guy involved should have a say.
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Perhaps I wasn't clear on one point. To say that it is a matter of right and not morality is a false dichotomy and a way simply of stating one's conclusion that the individual has complete autonomy to judge the morality of the situation. Morality or justice, if you will, also does not equate to emotion and "right" with legality.It isn't really possible to characterize all the views of all the people who protest, but it seems to me you are mischaracterizing the prevailing view of protesters. Clearly, they are indeed challenging the morality of abortion, but I doubt very much that any of them are trying to say that women as a class lack the right to decide because they are morally incapable of deciding. It isn't a challenge to the moral capacity of women, it is simply a view that the act is wrong, therefore, we don't leave it to autonomous decision making. Some people will make "wrong" decisions about even the most fundamental wrongs; we recognize this by prohibiting them. This isn't based on a judgment that everyone lacks moral capacity but that some will in fact do what is wrong.Again, abortion is not unique in this regard. Everyone views some acts as ones that should be prohibited. We could characterize any of these as claims that other people are morally incapable of deciding for themselves, but the reality is that we have simply judged the act wrong and therefore not one that we leave up to individual choice. We "disrespect" parents in the same way by having laws against child neglect and abuse. You clearly and strenuously reject the treatment of abortion on a similar basis, but that is how the basic reasoning works.
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"Some people will make "wrong" decisions about even the most fundamental wrongs; we recognize this by prohibiting them. This isn't based on a judgment that everyone lacks moral capacity but that some will in fact do what is wrong."qb: That's kind of what I was trying to say. Only said better, I think.
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Apologize, work intruded. It appears that I am not allowed to put together a coherent post today.We can make a general conclusion of pro-lifers, based on what they put on that picket sign, and write. And those picket signs all say that abortion is murder, which is, of course, wrong (murder, that is).That is a belief statement, and has nothing to do with law. The law is that a woman has the right to choose. The abuse and neglect of children is not a belief; it is a behavior.THAT is what sets me off. If you believe that abortion is murder, don't have one. No one will force you to.The flip side, however, is that YOU (generic, of course) WILL FORCE me to adhere to your BELIEF, and not have one.Again, it still comes down to the right to make a decision.I think we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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And look, no insults, vitriol, hatred, flames on either side.THAT is progress!
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I'm sure this won't be the last discussion here on pro-choice vs. pro-life and in a way I'm sorry I brought it up, but it's an issue that is back in the news with so many new laws being passed in various states. I think we had a great debate on the issues and it's nice to know we can do that on such an emotionally charged subject.You're right Taroya………..THAT is progress.
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Also, it's good to know when to step back. I gotta ask myself, not do I have an opinion on this, but . . . is there any good I can do on this issue, right now? Is there really something valuable I contribute that may do good? If not, maybe it's time to be quiet, for me. 🙂
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