Ashot here…I’m adding a first person account from yesterday’s arguments. And here’s the link to the audio.
Impressions from inside the courtroom
Mark A. Hall
Wake Forest University
The room was packed and buzzing with excitement. Some people clearly had slept outside last night. Even some of the attorneys general from the challenger states had to stand in line to get in. In the way into the building, I spotted none other than Ken Cuccinelli, attorney general of Virginia and lead party in the Fourth Circuit case. Sitting in my same row in the courtroom was a virtual quorum of the Senate Finance Committee, including Senators Leahy, Baucus, Grassley, and Kerry.
Solicitor General Verrilli encountered some forceful challenges early on in his presentation In particular, Chief Justice Roberts and Justices Scalia and Alito raised concerns about the slippery slope problem, citing examples such as burial insurance, gym membership, and mandatory cell phones to help with police emergencies.
Perhaps one of the most memorable exchanges, and certainly one that will resonate in the media, involved a question from Justice Scalia asking Solicitor General Verrilli to define the market.
JUSTICE SCALIA: Could you define the market — everybody has to buy food sooner or later, so you define the market as food, therefore, everybody is in the market; therefore, you can make people buy broccoli.
GENERAL VERRILLI: No, that’s quite different. That’s quite different. The food market, while it shares that trait that everybody’s in it, it is not a market in which your participation is often unpredictable and often involuntary.
Students of the Court, and of effective rhetoric, know that how issues are framed is critical to how analysis and decisions proceed. Thus, much of the questioning throughout the morning addressed the issue of which of several markets the Court should regard as being regulated: the insurance market, all health services, or the portion of health services the uninsured people are likely to use. As another example of framing, Justice Alito countered the government’s position that the uninsured force others to pay for their care by noting that most people subject to the mandate are required to pay more into the insurance pool than they are expected to use. Justice Roberts also pointedly observed that the comprehensive insurance mandated by the law includes several services that many people never use, such as pediatric care and substance abuse treatment. So, it appears that cross subsidies are in the eye of the beholder.
None of the Justices appointed by Democratic presidents expressed any substantial concerns about the government’s commerce clause position—suggesting that their votes are secure, as has been speculated. Instead, they appeared to rise to the government’s defense. Toward the end of the first hour, Justice Sotomayor crisply defined the government’s three main lines of defense somewhat more clearly than even the Solicitor General had. About 15 minutes into the argument, Justice Breyer spoke up to offer the government some support. He observed that Congress created commerce where none previously existed when it started the Bank of the US, for instance, which Justice Marshall’s opinion in McCulloch v. Maryland famously upheld under the Necessary and Proper clause.
That was the first of two novel arguments Justice Breyer made that I don’t recall reading in the principal briefs. He also pressed several times an argument that should appeal to public health lawyers: what if there were a rampant contagious disease that threatened 10 million lives; couldn’t the government mandate vaccinations? If so, what does it matter that people who are forced to be vaccinated weren’t engaged in any commercial activity?
About 30 minutes in, the Lochner v. New York case was unexpectedly introduced into the arguments, in the form of questioning from Justice Scalia about whether the term “proper” in the Necessary and Proper clause has independent force. Chief Justice Roberts joined in, noting that the Court had earlier expressed concerns about unwieldy substantive due process jurisprudence only with regard to constitutional limits on states’ police plenary powers, and not with respect to limiting the federal government’s enumerated powers.
Tax arguments, on the other hand, received fairly short shrift in all of the arguments. There seems to be very little support, on either side of the Court’s ideological divide, for sustaining the individual mandate as an exercise of Congress’ taxing power. The challengers also reminded the Court that, if this were a tax, they still contend that it is unconstitutional as an unapportioned “direct tax.”
Both Paul Clement for the states and Michael Carvin for the private parties spoke smoothly and quickly. Justices Sotomayor and Breyer were especially active in challenging their positions, with Justices Kagan and Ginsburg also chiming in regularly. Especially notable, I think, were Justice Breyer’s several references to his concern that barring the federal government from mandating individual health insurance in this case might prevent it from responding effectively to a virulent epidemic.
One of my favorite moments, which drew hearty laughs, was this exchange with Justice Kagan: “Well, doesn’t that seem a little bit, Mr. Clement, [like] cutting the bologna thin? I mean health insurance exists only for the purpose of financing health care. The two are inextricably interlinked. We don’t get insurance so that we can stare at our insurance certificate. We get it so that we can go and access health care.”
I listened most attentively to questions for the challengers from the Court’s conservative wing. All eyes and ears were on Justice Kennedy, as a potential swing vote, and he spoke up early on (about 3 minutes in), raising a key point: is it “true that the noninsured young adult is, in fact, an actuarial reality insofar . . . health insurance companies figure risks? That person who is sitting at home in his or her living room doing nothing is an actuarial reality that can and must be measured for health service purposes; is that their argument?” Justice Kennedy repeated this sophisticated point later: “they are in the market in the sense that they are creating a risk that the market must account for.” And, near the end of the morning’s argument, he interjected (in response to the slippery slope concern that regulating here would allow the government to regulate anything): “I think it is true that if most questions in life are matters of degree, in the insurance and health care world, both markets — stipulate two markets — the young person who is uninsured is uniquely proximately very close to affecting the rates of insurance and the costs of providing medical care in a way that is not true in other industries. That’s my concern in the case.”
Later, Chief Justice Roberts challenged the analogy to requiring people to buy cars, noting that not everyone is in the car market, but they are all in the health care market. He made the same points several times in different ways. For instance, to Mr. Carvin: “I don’t think you’re addressing their main point, which is that they are not creating commerce in health care. It’s already there, and we are all going to need some kind of health care; most of us will at some point.” And, in response to Carvin’s analogy to mandatory mortgage insurance: “I don’t think that’s fair, because not everybody is going to enter the mortgage market. The government’s position is that almost everybody is going to enter the health care market.”
Filed under: Affordable Care Act, Supreme Court | 117 Comments »
Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
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Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojkt
All Things in Moderation 