Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojktThis House investigation gets a lot of play on the right because of an innate rightwing view that all Democrats would ban and/or confiscate ALL firearms If possible. There is a belief by some righties that Holder set this up purposefully to demonstrate that U.S. Sold guns are killing people as a way then to introduce (more) gun control. I disagree with that. To me, this just smacks of typical government incompetence. Napoleon said, “Never ascribe to malice, that which can be explained by incompetence.”
If you don’t know the backstory, check it out. It’s awful and stupifying.
–Troll
Filed under: gun control | Tagged: atf, fast and furious |
All Things in Moderation 
TMW, I got a broken link at the LAT. I have got about ten more minutes of lunch, so hurry and post the entire link in a comment por favor.
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This is a little more hair on fire, if you will, but amazing nevertheless.
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Sorry Mark, hope this is ok.http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110929,0,201277.story?track=rss&utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+latimes%2Fnews%2Fnationworld%2Fnation+%28L.A.+Times+-+National+News%29
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http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20110929,0,201277.story
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Thanks NoVa, I tried to fix the hyperlink, but NoGo for some reason involving my own incompetence.
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Thanx, both TMW and NVH. Stupid, but one of those groupthink police ideas that backfire at every level. If anyone is thinking Holder and not Geithner tells ATF what to do, I beg to differ. TMW, Holder can take the blame for FBI screw-ups, but he is not in the chain of command for ATF.
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I fixed the link in the main body of the story
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Thanks Mark. I had forgotten that.
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The ATF sure is responsible for some stinkers. The Branch Davidian fiasco (Koresh went into town almost every day) and Ruby Ridge (warrantless trespassing and shooting a pregnant woman in the head) to name two.
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From McWing's second link. Does anyone believe this is true, manufacturing evidence to promote anti-gun legislation? I'm a critic of the Obama Administration on many fronts and a supporter on others, but this is stretching the imagination. Is there even a record of Obama taking some sort of strong ideological stand against guns other than the usual week-kneed comments regarding extended magazines and assault weapons? I don't know much about the second scenario so won't comment on that. There are two possible explanations. The first is that the anti-gun Obama administration deliberately wanted American guns planted in Mexico in order to demonize American firearms dealers and gun owners. The operation was manufacturing “evidence” for the president’s false claim that we’re to blame for the appalling levels of Mexican drug-war violence. If this is true, then Holder & Co. have got to go — and the trail needs to be followed no matter where it leads. For the federal government to seek to frame its own citizens is unconscionable. A second notion is that the CIA was behind the whole thing, which accounts for all the desperate wagon-circling. Under this theory, the Agency feared the los Zetas drug cartel was becoming too powerful and might even mount a coup against the Mexican government. So some 2,000 weapons costing more than $1.25 million were deliberately channeled to the rival Sinaloa cartel, which operates along the American border, to keep the Zetas in check. Of course, there’s a third explanation — that both scenarios are true, and that those in charge of Fast and Furious saw an opportunity to shoot two birds with one Romanian-made AK Draco pistol.
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I agree McWing, the ATF doesn't exactly have a glowing record. And I would even go so far as to say there is the possibility of some internal corruption in play, but concocting some elaborate scheme to end gun ownership (which would be fine with me, sorry, not the scheme but the ownership) sounds more like a movie script.
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lmsinca: "Does anyone believe this is true, manufacturing evidence to promote anti-gun legislation?"I'm sure it happens (in fact, it's been demonstrated in one case that someone made up historical data in attempt to prove the questionable idea that the mostly rural, hunting, self-defending population of this country didn't actually own guns . . . I would have to look that up). Data is manufactured along all sides of the issue, and also there are folks who are so ready to believe a thing that they can roll forward with insubstantial evidence, just because they are so predisposed to believe the conclusion.That being said, the current Fast and Furious fiasco is just pure incompetence. From stem to stern. Although the CIA theory is certainly credible. You're simply not going to end gun ownership in this country. I could go along with a national weapons registration database, weapon fingerprinting, ending gun sales at gun shows, and more, but I would never go along with an outright ban on gun ownership.
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Lms, agree with you about the conspiracy/gun control idea. I wrote a couple weeks ago, on a string with Shrink, that we, the U.S. were taking sides in Mexico because the Zetas were becoming too powerful. The Zetas came from the Army and their influence goes all the way to the top in the Mexican military. Calderon really cannot use the Army to try and fight the cartels anymore so, I guess, it was decided to keep the cartels going after eachother. I tend to think it was more State Department than the CIA though.I think the only solution is the Columbian model; Paramitaries.
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Kevin, I know ending gun ownership is impossible and would agree with your scale backs, I just really hate guns. They completely freak me out, and if I ever saw someone carrying one in a crowd, I would make the fasted retreat you could imagine for someone my age.McWing, as someone who is passionate about the Mexican people I really need to study the political/military issues more carefully. It all seems so hopeless for the people, which is what I tend to concentrate on, as I don't have any good ideas of how to fix the rest of it. Let me know if you have any other good links re the cartels/army/government etc.
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I'm not a fan of guns (I do not own one; no plans to ever do so), but I'm a fan of the option of an at least modestly well-armed citizenry. But, to each their own. It's competing ideas in the political arena that get us to the next stage of human progress.
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I doubt that it is the conspiracy that they would like it to be. I think it is sheer incompetence, and got support simply because someone was somebody's nephew or cousin twice removed or some such.Regarding guns: I am all for national registration and not selling at gun shows. I am not for AK-47's and such. I don't own a gun because I am unfamiliar with them, and besides, they are such not a good idea in a hi-rise.Seeing a gun in a crowd TODAY would freak me out, but I used to date someone that had a concealed carry, and he did carry one. The idea that you can bring a gun into a bar is one of the more asinine that I have ever heard. Having been a bartender, oh, puhlease! STUPID.I suppose I am just common sense about it. Dad had two rifles, and I used to open the closet door and look at them, until Dad showed me how to load them and we went out on target practice. No more curiosity, and didn't look at them twice again.Gee, maybe education IS the key!
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The level of stupidity it would take to explain this is such that it is almost impossible to accept as the sole explanation.Whatever the level of conscious conspiratorial intent, it would predictably have been used to argue for more gun control, and it is hard to believe that this didn't occur to any involved in planning or approving it. After all, it was a talking point of the gun-control lobby well before this that guns from the US go to Mexico and circle back. Moreover, it is almost beside the point of the gun-control agenda to focus on the point of origin here.
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"The level of stupidity it would take to explain this is such that it is almost impossible to accept as the sole explanation."I can easily accept incompetence as the sole explanation. I've seen bureaucracies at work.
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While I have a generally high regard for the DEA and ATF agents I know, they will admit to friends that they have had some [very] bad apples. FBI agents are generally very good but they never admit they have bad apples unless they catch them themselves.
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