Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojkthttp://www.npr.org/2011/09/16/140515737/california-turns-to-china-for-new-bay-bridge
Listen to the story if you can. The State of CA went with low bidder on the steel for the new Bay Bridge. $400M saved by accepting the bid from a Chinese subcontractor on the steel cable. $18/day steelworkers in China.
I wrote three days ago that I think we should impose ILO [UN International Labor Organization] standards on our trade partners and that together with Europe, Japan, Australia, and Canada we could have fair free trade. That would mean going around WTO.
If ILO rules were adopted by CA, CA could not have done this. If there were fed money in the bridge, CA could not have done this. BUT CA DID THIS. And I think it is pissing our lives away for a state government to do this. For the NAACP to contract the stone in the MLK Memorial to a Chinese outfit is a private regrettable decision. But our state governments belong to us, dammit.
The ILO rules only require minwage/maxhour enforcement, not at a particular level, child labor restrictions, no slavery, and freedom of association [for collective bargaining]. This latter absolutely does not exist in China.
If my rant offends you, fellow Americans, I can only ask why.
Filed under: Uncategorized | Tagged: NEW POST |
All Things in Moderation 
mark,I linked to the NYT story about this on PL back in June. I don't recall many comments about it. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/business/global/26bridge.html?pagewanted=all(I'm out the rest of the day, at least until this evening. Have a good one all.)
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ok we're moving over hereI said…"They're better at crony capitalism…Scott said…Not "better". They just use it way more than we do." I said…Yeah that is exactly what I am saying, I sure wasn't saying they are more moral about it, I am saying that is all they are.Frances Fukuyama, the neo con phenom, declared "the end of history" when the cold war ended, but as you know, I think it never did, it just demilitarized. I think America is being looted and that we need to defend ourselves from international crony capitalism.
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How can California even afford to do it at all, without fed money?
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shrink…I will have to check back in later. have to go for now, but I posted a response on the previous thread, if you haven't seen it.
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I don't know that America is being looted (indeed, in some aspects–notably in cheap consumer products–we benefit very much from our relationship with China), but it's in our long term interest to slowly and gently push them towards the sort of basic rights that Mark discusses above.
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I hate to check out on such an interesting discussion. I am dealing with a possible medical issue with our youngest. She may have appendicitis so I am checking flights, doing laundry and clearing off my desk. We should know around noon PDT, so please keep things going in the meantime and post the evening open thread if I'm gone. Keep writing and recruiting in the meantime. Peace
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I'm working so always in and out, but you be safe Lulu and all the best wishes for your little girl (I know she's grown up, but when they get sick, it is just like it always was).
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Good luck and safe trip, lms.
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Not definite yet, so I'm merely busy getting organized just in case. CT scan in two hours so we'll know after that. See y'all this afternoon, I hope.
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Administrative Update:http://www.all-things-in-moderation.com/Now re-directs to this blog. This will allow access if a filter filters by domain name, not if it filters by IP range.
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"I don't know that America is being looted."Cheap stuff, is that what we got for an economic recession that will not go away? Trillions of debt piled on debt, highest rate of poverty (family of 4 living on $22k a year), for that, we got TVs and for everyone who can afford it, driving around in huge cars with lots of features.
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lmsinca: Prayers and good wishes. I hope all is well.
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A singular focus on China is misplaced, it is only one of many with which we need to engage in what would be attacked as trade wars. This, I think, is the problem,"it's in our long term interest to slowly and gently push them towards the sort of basic rights"Actually that is current policy and yet, the reciprocal is what is going on. They are hardening off and our basic rights, well, was it really just the terrorists who caused the militarization of domestic law enforcement, the corporate security armies, or did we do that?
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"was it really just the terrorists who caused the militarization of domestic law enforcement, the corporate security armies, or did we do that?"Clearly, our choice was to militarize domestic law enforcement (especially in some areas), do everything possible to make our government appear to literally be insane in the operation of our national and international airports, and expand the possibilities of domestic surveillance (although some gaze across the pond to the UK and look enviously upon their vast networks of cameras, always running, always watching). That did not have to be our reaction. But it's a very human reaction. "If you see something, say something!"
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Since 1980…"The University of Michigan's gauge of consumer expectations dipped to 47.0 from 47.4. It was the lowest level since May 1980. The economic outlook for the next 12 months fell to 38 from 40, the lowest since February 2009 when the world economy was gripped by the credit crisis.Still, the survey's barometer of current economic conditions gained to 74.5 from 68.7, and better than a forecast of 68.0."It was certainly nice to see the current conditions index rise again, but all we did was retake some ground to where we were in July," said Tom Porcelli, senior U.S. economist at RBC Capital Markets in New York." Reuters
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"Cheap stuff, is that what we got for an economic recession that will not go away?"That's not China's fault, not even the fault of international trade. You combine the broad, sector-wide intentional and unintentional fraud and tulip-mania and magical thinking in the financial sector and banking (except for Scott, of course) and the sorts of systemic changes that occurring thanks to technological innovation, as well as international trade, and demographic shifts . . . without cheap DVDs and iPods I think we'd be in trouble. I agree we're in a recession that won't go away, however. I don't think it's all about cheap consumer goods, but I am not entirely unhappy about cheap consumer goods–there are many positives, despite the negatives. But that's the conservative view of life, I suppose: there are always trade-offs. You must squeeze the lemon, to get lemonade. And if you are enjoying lemonade, someone, somewhere, squeezed a lemon. "driving around in huge cars with lots of features"But we all like full-featured cars. What is a car, anyway, if you can't plug your iPod into it and the control the iPod from the steering wheel?
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"without cheap DVDs and iPods I think we'd be in trouble."I think we'd *still* be in trouble. I didn't realize how that sounded, so drafted, until I just re-read it. Not that cheap consumer goods have saved us (they still have a very high cost, it's just hidden in our home foreclosures).
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Here is the kind face of crony capitalism. Democrats pretending the telecom merger is a job creator (and so is free trade). http://www.seattlepi.com/business/article/Democrats-call-for-Obama-to-approve-T-Mobile-2173185.phpSure it is…that is why they want to merge, to create jobs! That's what always happens when two competitors merge, all the redundancies are preserved, because they are so efficient that way. Like what happened when HP and Compaq got together and there are so many other examples of how this works.
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shrink:Cheap stuff, is that what we got for an economic recession that will not go away?No, there's no real cause and effect relationship at all between the recession and cheap stuff we get from China.I don't understand the connection you apparently see between our current economic travails and "crony capitalism" in China. was it really just the terrorists who caused the militarization of domestic law enforcement, the corporate security armies, or did we do that?It certainly wasn't crony capitalism in China or Indonesia or anyplace else that caused it, which seems to be what you are implying.
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shrink:Here is the kind face of crony capitalism. Democrats pretending the telecom merger is a job creator (and so is free trade).Actually, the fact that the government is involved at all in deciding who can and cannot merge together is a lot closer to what crony capitalism is.
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"Not that cheap consumer goods have saved us (they still have a very high cost, it's just hidden in our home foreclosures)."That's right, that is close to what I was saying. It wasn't cheap after all. These things are actually very expensive and the idea was we would "grow past" the debt, but we didn't because we couldn't, because we exported the means of production, the finance capital went elsewhere, the wealth creation engine that underpins all gdp growth, it moved.
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"Actually, the fact that the government is involved at all in deciding who can and cannot merge together is a lot closer to what crony capitalism is."It is just because they care so much about job creation.
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shrink:Could you explain to me the source of your derision over "free trade"? Is it the fact that you think we don't actually practice free trade although we should, or is it that you think we do practice it and we shouldn't?
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"Sure it is…that is why they want to merge, to create jobs!"Your cynicism is humorously accurate. But you forgot the most important reason AT&T wants to consume T-Mobile: to lower prices for consumers!I can't wait, myself.
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I said this…A singular focus on China is misplaced, it is only one of many with which we need to engage in what would be attacked as trade wars. As for this…was it really just the terrorists who caused the militarization of domestic law enforcement, the corporate security armies, or did we do that?It certainly wasn't crony capitalism in China or Indonesia or anyplace else that caused it, which seems to be what you are implying.What? No it isn't. I said the idea of slowly pushing our enemies to respect basic human rights is kind of a laugher. It isn't working and we're heading the other direction too.
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shrink:It is just because they care so much about job creation. I get it, that's a joke!My point remains.
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BTW, AT&T has already grown far past the size where continued expansion generations economies of scale or other benefits. I'd prefer to competitors continuing to compete for my consumer dollars, than one big behemoth that allows AT&T to be more callous towards me than they already are. But, that may just be me.
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"Could you explain to me the source of your derision over "free trade"? Is it the fact that you think we don't actually practice free trade although we should, or is it that you think we do practice it and we shouldn't?"Neither. I have never thought there is any such thing as "free" trade. All markets are controlled, all of their boundaries and rules are controlled by powerful interests. Free trade seems to occur, when parties make a deal and don't have to talk to a third party about those rules, that's always nice, like at a farmers' market.
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"because we exported the means of production, the finance capital went elsewhere, the wealth creation engine that underpins all gdp growth, it moved."Only one answer, then: one world government. Then, and only then, shall we all truly be in the same boat. But, in general, I concur: we should holding China to a higher standard (and enforcing that with tariffs) rather than lowering our own. And I think this is happening, but in dribs and drabs, one company at a time, one product line at a time, one diplomatic discussion at at time.I think judicious tariffs might make it happen a little faster.
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"Free trade seems to occur, when parties make a deal and don't have to talk to a third party about those rules, that's always nice, like at a farmers' market."Arguably, black markets operate as free trade zones. As a practical definition, free trade is more regional–international trade is rarely "free" in the platonic sense.
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I get it, that's a joke!Finally! But we're not far away from making the same point. Those Ds have no interest in the deal apart from their own re-election money pot and that is crony capitalism.
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Black markets would be a great example of free trade, except they aren't, they're controlled by armed gangs, instead of the state and its police.
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Yes Kevin, maybe we'd still be using rotary phones if big government hadn't broken up AT&T the first time.
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"What? No it isn't. I said the idea of slowly pushing our enemies to respect basic human rights is kind of a laugher. It isn't working and we're heading the other direction too."I will say this. I think we are, and we aren't. We're not doing as much as we could, and in some areas we are heading in the wrong direction (and we always have). It's happening in dribs and drabs, and at this rate, it should only take a millennium to achieve a broad, global economy that is robust and observes basic human rights, across the globe. I'm going to have to embed a video. New post shortly.
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shrink:I have never thought there is any such thing as "free" trade.Can there be?If yes, should there be?
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shrink:Those Ds have no interest in the deal apart from their own re-election money pot and that is crony capitalism.Assuming you think this is a bad thing, how can it be avoided?
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No and yes. It is an ideal state, but it can't exist. Trade barriers are a necessary evil and not necessarily the fewer the better, it depends who wants to trade and what they want to trade and where they got it (their trader status). Or here is an example…our new country borrowed money to build a navy, the famous frigates, to establish free trade for itself in the Atlantic. Otherwise, anyone with a gunboat was blockading American free trade. First thing we did? Attacked Libya. The Barbary pirates. It was bloody and we won and the rest is history. War of 1812 was a hot trade war. When Kruschev said, "we will bury you," he meant economically, the cold war was a trade war. We trade freely because we'll kill anyone who says we can't. OPEC? we tolerate that because they don't really make oil cost more, OPEC exists to make sure they don't compete to make oil cost less.
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Crony capitalism avoided. I don't have a stock answer. I will build an answer, but it may take awhile. It isn't that I don't have ideas, I just don't get asked that, so sentences aren't already strung together in my head. It seems to me that it is crucial, that we fight it and succeed, in order to protect what we love about this country. That may sound hysterical, but that is what I believe.
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"Yes Kevin, maybe we'd still be using rotary phones if big government hadn't broken up AT&T the first time."Actually, AT&T introduced touch tone technology before their breakup. You could get a touch tone phone before the break-up–in your choice of beige or black. I think they might have also had brown.But do you remember what exploded in the market after the break up? Cordless phones. Previously, AT&T hadn't seen a need for them. When the monopoly was ended, 3rd parties flooded the market with groovily-shaped phones with big horsey collapsible antennas. It was a wonderful time.
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perfect thank you. there were white ones too.I had a brick, I also had several bag phones with 5w transmitters, five watts!
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ceyfline had a fantastic post regarding the breakup of AT&T. I will look for it.
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Can't find it, tired of fighting WaP to get it.It talked about monopolies, specifically AT&T and Bell Labs, and how the financing scheme between AT&T, Bell Labs, and the gov't worked.
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"It talked about monopolies, specifically AT&T and Bell Labs, and how the financing scheme between AT&T, Bell Labs, and the gov't worked."Dagnabbit. Well, I'm sure it was lovely.
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