Brent Nyitray
Fairlington Blade
Let the mutherfuker burn!
jnc4p
Kevin S. Willis
Michigoose
lmsinca
markinaustin
Arcanaut
novahockey
quarterback
ScottC
yellojkt
Well, the liberal talking point of the day seems to be the cheering that took place last night during the Republican debate. According to the liberal narrative, the crowd erupted in applause when it was suggested that a poor planning 30-something might be left to die for want of insurance. The liberal outrage was summed up by 12Bar earlier:
The implications of letting uninsured people die is broad. Why even get the fire department out there to pry them out their wrecked cars if they’re uninsured. Just tow the whole thing, wreck and victims to the wrecking yard where we don’t have to hear them scream. And people applaud for this?
Well no, they don’t. You guys should really watch that portion of the debate again. There was no audience cheer in support of the idea of letting the uninsured die This is just an invented talking point. In fact, the notion was explicitly rejected by Paul, to the sound of applause.
The initial cheer came when Blitzer asked “Who pays?” and Paul responded “That’s what freedom is all about, taking your own risks. This whole idea that you have to prepare and take care of everybody…” (Applause)
Note that at this point the notion that anyone might die had not yet been raised. The question had to do with who pays the bill for medical treatment. Only after the applauding had susided did Blitzer ask “But Congressman, are you saying that society should just let him die?”
Paul then explicitly rejected this notion, saying “No. I practiced medicine before we had Medicaid, in the early 1960s, when I got out of medical school. I practiced at Santa Rosa Hospital in San Antonio, and the churches took care of them. We never turned anybody away from the hospitals.” The corwd then erupted into applause again.
Watch the exchange and see if this isn’t so. Today’s liberal talking point is based on a complete misrepresentation of what happened. The applause was not for the idea of letting someone die. It was for the notion that people ought to be responsible for themselves.
The horror!
Filed under: Uncategorized |
All Things in Moderation 
The discussion is frequently framed in a nature that we have two choices: either the government pays for (and controls) everything, and everybody is taken care of, in every possible way and in every circumstance, from cradle to grave–or nobody is, and everybody is left to die. The idea that perhaps there is some middle ground–where everybody, or most everybody, receives some basic level of care, but that there will still be some circumstances where the social safety net doesn't catch everybody . . . it generally does not seem to be entertained.I, for one, don't applaud letting 30 year olds die for lack of medical care because they don't have insurance. : )
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The gauntlet is thrown. Well played sir.
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The framing also often conflates government with society. If assumption seems to be that if "we as a society" want to accomplish something, it can only and must be realized via the government. This is wrong. "We as a society" are perfectly capable of establishing organizations and institutions outside of government that can accomplish tasks and perform certain presumed responsibilities.(Kevin…good to see you again. Been a while.)
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Scott, thanks for calling attention to a false narrative. I would add my own perspective that local and state government should be the "government[s] of choice" for so many domestic issues and that when voters allow their local governments and state governments to fail them but then insist that Congress and the Prez must do IT, whatever IT is, the voters skew government toward the distant and inefficient. We may differ in degree on this issue, but it is an undeniable fact that almost no one votes in local elections and precious few in statewide elections.
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Should the Emergency Room Act be repealed?
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Wow, I need some help here. Couldn't you have made your point scott without specifically calling out 12Bar since that narrative was being reported just about everywhere? A lot of people watching last night thought the same thing and sometimes only listening back to the virtual record can correct it. I haven't listened because it isn't important to me.I do have issues however with the whole rugged individualism attitude and the assumption that some charitable organization somewhere will help out. And one problem with leaving some things up to individual states such as health care is once you travel across state lines or relocate you have to start anew. If you're not receiving employer provided coverage it's virtually impossible to do that. Once you have insurance coverage that you've managed to acquire on your own, it's really precarious to give it up.
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Anyone know who doodah is?Hi sue
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"Wow, I need some help here."No! Pull yourself up by your bootstraps. jk, jk (as the kids say, meaning just kidding, after they say something obnoxious online) . . . Sigh, want to get deeper into it, but I've got to lay ground work for an upcoming 3d model of an atom for science class. Yay, children and their homework! Speaking of a nanny state, I've got one in my own home! I'm part of the problem!
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Mark, if people participated as actively in government, especially at the local level, as complain about it nationally, it would be a very different looking country. 😉
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And welcome, sue! Lovely to see you. I was going to repeal the emergency room act, but since you don't want me to, I changed my mind. :)I'm not sure how I feel about the emergency room act, but I know how I would feel about emergency rooms turning away people who couldn't pay. Which is, I wouldn't like that.
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Well, I listened to the clip again, and it still sounds like applause for letting the guy die, along with the catcalls from the audience just in case you missed it. It doesn't speak very well for the audience. I'm assuming the pols would have not clapped and cheered also.
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Kevin, okie's emailing me and she can't get in because of changing her email or something. I tried to help her but it didn't work. Could you help really quick, pretty please?
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Okay, would need more detail. Have her email me! But she's Doodah, so she got in at some point. 😉 But I can probably also kick her off and then reinvite her, using the other email, if she wants.
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Sometimes, people are cheering a larger concept (people can fend for themselves! government causes more problems than it solves!) than the idea of people dying needlessly. A different emphasis.
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Hi all. Yeah, who is doodah? Re the Emergency Room Act, it seems to be the classic conundrum. If one is going to advocate personal responsibility, then why should we mandate hospital emergency rooms to accept all comers? I think this topic should be put to the GOP candidates. They are all apparently against an individual mandate, but are they are willing to repeal the ERA?
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kevin, scat had the same problem and I see her also. I gave them both your email address and a link to the site. I tried re-inviting okie and it didn't work. Don't worry, they can wait until the morning, I know we had a busy day.I'm happy to see so many people though, I hope we can keep it going. We need posts (diaries) every day everyone to keep it interesting and we're all authors now.
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Maybe they don't mean to be cheering for what they appear to be cheering for. They're not cheering that the guy dies, but that he should take care of himself. I thought the question was posed that the guy couldn't take care of himself. Too subtle for me.
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lms:"Couldn't you have made your point scott without specifically calling out 12Bar since that narrative was being reported just about everywhere?"I suppose so, but I was looking for an example of the narrative, and what she wrote fit the bill. And I did make it clear that it was a liberal talking point, not just 12Bar's. "I do have issues however with the whole rugged individualism attitude…"I don't see any such attitude. Again, as I pointed out above, opposition to government action does not equate to opposition to community or society.
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12Bar:"I thought the question was posed that the guy couldn't take care of himself."The question to which Paul was responding when he elicited cheering was simply "Who pays?", assuming that the guy couldn't pay.
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Holy crap. I heard about this commenting site and I had a harder time getting here than getting to Plum Line!!!Kevin, I've barely skimmed the comments here, but I will email you separately about what would straighten this out for me. What a boondoggle (that I created BTW). Thanks for your time for the extra assistance.
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Hi okie, and I wasn't much help was I? OMG, I don't think this would have happened if it had been up to me.Hope everyone's working on their posts for tomorrow, because I'm still dealing with all the emails and so is kevin.
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Okay….just checking the site out and looks like I've missed so much already!I'll e-mail you Kevin about my issues (well, at least the ones pertaining to this site) later!
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kevin and lms, thanks to you both for your extra assistance. Sorry I was such a pain. And many, many thanks for your time in setting this up.FYI — scott just posted link to this site on PL.
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scott, go check your email
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scott, your link has already caused comments from others who are not yet known.
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Scott, I don't care in regards to cross-posting to plum line, but lmsinca suggested, and I thought it was reasonable, that we wait until this "select" group gets established, and comfortable. Not everybody who has ever made a comment on plum line is going to be invited to post blog entries (and will get purged from comments, if something even sounds like a violent fantasy) . . . We were just gonna take the public aspect a little slow. Also, nobody here wants to be rude to Greg, even if the WaPo commenting software leaves much to be desired.
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Sorry all. I've turned the privacy setting on so that only authors can view. Hopefully that will block the link I posted. And the post with the link in it said nothing at all about the site. (Just a cryptic message to qb.) Hopefully that fixes things.Sorry again.
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BTW…I reported my post with the link, so maybe it will get pinked. Especially if it gets a bunch more reports…know what I mean?
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scott, I did not even think of reporting the comment on PL. LOL. But I'm going to try it now if it's not too late. Nothing personal. I for one absolutely do not want GS to be threatened by this because I still fully intend to read PL daily, whether I comment or not. After all, it's why I got here to begin with.
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Scott, I think your post on PL might be gone. I can't find it.
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Update: scott, it was already pinked when I got there. Good job all.
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Ah-ha. A difference I did not immediately pay attention to is that the time on this blog is Pacific. Wapo adjusts to local time and this does not.Evening, 12BB and scott.
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Yur on God's time now okie.
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LOL. But then I live in God's country.
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Troll McWingnut (if you stop by) . . . more cowbell. I love it so. Brilliant! Now, that's a campaign I can get behind.
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I had to laugh on PL that shrink got ignored in invites to this site. He was moaning. I hope he shows up soon.
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Hey, we used to say that in Montana. How can OK and MT both be God's country?
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12bar, I'd match Okie fundies in an MT fundies mud wrestling match any day, any time. Take that.
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in=against
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Shrink should be invited, I would think . . . but we gotta have an email address. In regards to ground rules, I've got two: no name calling (everybody has a name or a handle, use that) and no violent fantasies (genocide is never the answer). That stuff is not productive in a collaborative dialog. And while I don't objection to profanity in context (not a fan of the net nanny), probably ought to keep it reasonably professional.At least we can now say Viagra, or that we're pissed off, without having to worry about the Net Nanny. Yay!
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Didn't notice the time thing. That is going to take some getting used to.I'm off to bed before I do more damage. Thanks to lms and Kevin for doing the heavy lifting here. Looks good.
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Mt. fundies? If you're talking about those born agains, I'll tell you, I never met one in MT. They're more like the "live in a cave with multiple assault rifle types" so that "those sons of bitches ain't going to step on liberties" and so that "I don't give a good God damn, I want to be pitched outa that car if we roll and nobody is gonna make me wear that seatbelt".
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Thanks Kevin, I aim to please. On my company laptop, the comment box won't load when Im signed in and when I'm not, it want's to load the comment box in a different page. Works fine on my iPhone though. Is there an issue with IE? Or with being signed on using two different devices? Is it my company's security software? Am I insane? Is "time is a river, flowing into nowhere" as Steve Wynwood wrote? Or, is Bob Dylan right when he sings "Time is an ocean but it ends at the shore?"
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McWing: I do not know. Google has been updating blogger, so maybe? Haven't tried it with IE, but some of the management stuff was flakey in FireFox, so I'm using Safari on the Mac for everything.I think we can change the time. I'll look into that.
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12bar, too funny. In OK, as a gross generalization they are one and the same.troll, evening to you. You really still use IE? I'm about the least techie person around and even I don't do that anywhere.Nite all. Looking forward to this addition.
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Bedtime for me. Night, all!
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Also out.
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Scott, some loud guy yelled "yes" when Wolf asked Paul if we should "let him die".Paul answered "no". The guy in the audience who yelled "yes" deserves some criticism, I think.
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Hey all, I just posted a new one with an open discussion and ground rules. I'm not the boss though okay? And shrink got a hold of me so he and Bernie will both get invites tomorrow.I haven't seen michigoose yet or did I miss her.Looks like everyone's going to bed so deal with my post in the morning.
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52 comments, that's pretty good for our first night.
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link to new post?http://conservaliberals.blogspot.com/2011/09/ground-rules-please-read-discuss.html
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Mark,I agree. That guy deserves a lot of criticism. But from the tone of the discussions about it today (on PL and elsewhere) one would have thought that it was at this point that the audience erupted in applause. Instead the audience kind of hushed when he yelled it, and then applauded when Paul rejected the notion.
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Heh..I like that lms.
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Okie, it's my company computer. I can't load anything into it. Not a surprise though, since we manufactur and sell buggy whips.I'll just stick to using my phone and/or IPad for now.
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I definitely need some west coasters here at night to keep me company.
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